Jello Wrestling & Porno At The NSF

[Gaspar]

That's ideology talking. There are plenty of examples of government spurring private enterprise to good things. Increased CAFE standards did the trick for a long time, until automakers figured out how to game the system. NASA's various challenges have resulted in the development of several useful new technologies. The sulfur dioxide cap and trade scheme all but eliminated acid rain, without a mandate of a specific technology to reduce those particular emissions.

Many countries around the world have been subsidizing renewable energy quite heavily for the past decade or so and we've seen an explosion in new solar cell and wind turbine technologies as a result.

If you believe government can do no right, you will only see it do wrong. Similarly, if you believe government can do no right and you're in charge of government, it will only work poorly. Private companies with shitty leadership have the same fate befall them all the time.

When government steps out of the realm of government, it almost always does wrong.  

Nate, you have a difficult job my friend.  As one of the staunch defenders of expanding government, it is your job provide examples of how programs, new and old, produce results above waste.  You then have to show how such programs exceed the product of private enterprise.

As each program and initiative crumbles over time under the weight of it's own expansion landing squarely on the back of the people, you then have to issue blame outside of government.

An exhausting job.  I applaud your efforts, but don't envy the increasing workload you are willing to take on.  Take comfort in the fact that, in the long run, your efforts and the efforts of those like you will be successful.  Liberalism/Progressivism always triumphs in popularity over Conservative philosophy.  

Eventually the wants of the people always exceed the production of the people, as the importance of personal responsibility crumbles.  The young set their sights on the wealth of others as a means to their own personal comfort without first considering the great potential within themselves.  

We are slouching closer to the progressivism of Europe and many other countries without realizing that we are the only furnace that keeps those countries alive.  When we too turn into a country of people who's wants exceed our willingness to produce and innovate the fires die, and with it our freedom.  The cascade will not simply be felt nationally.  All of those great countries we admire for their massive social justice programs and public entitlements will vanish without the economic fuel required to sustain them.  

You simply see the noose as a necktie.

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. – John Adams (1814)

Pugsley's First Law of Government: All government programs eventually accomplish the opposite of what they are designed to achieve.

[nathanm]

When government steps out of the realm of government, it almost always does wrong.  

Nate, you have a difficult job my friend.  As one of the staunch defenders of expanding government, it is your job provide examples of how programs, new and old, produce results above waste.  You then have to show how such programs exceed the product of private enterprise.

As each program and initiative crumbles over time under the weight of it's own expansion landing squarely on the back of the people, you then have to issue blame outside of government.

An exhausting job.  I applaud your efforts, but don't envy the increasing workload you are willing to take on.  Take comfort in the fact that, in the long run, your efforts and the efforts of those like you will be successful.  Liberalism/Progressivism always triumphs in popularity over Conservative philosophy.  

Eventually the wants of the people always exceed the production of the people, as the importance of personal responsibility crumbles.  The young set their sights on the wealth of others as a means to their own personal comfort without first considering the great potential within themselves.  

We are slouching closer to the progressivism of Europe and many other countries without realizing that we are the only furnace that keeps those countries alive.  When we too turn into a country of people who's wants exceed our willingness to produce and innovate the fires die, and with it our freedom.  The cascade will not simply be felt nationally.  All of those great countries we admire for their massive social justice programs and public entitlements will vanish without the economic fuel required to sustain them.  

You simply see the noose as a necktie.

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. – John Adams (1814)

Pugsley's First Law of Government: All government programs eventually accomplish the opposite of what they are designed to achieve.

The funniest part about your rant is that it's the progressives that want to get the most wasteful parts of government under control: the security apparatus. Also, I did supply examples. That you ignore them makes me less likely to bother in the future.

[we vs us]

When government steps out of the realm of government, it almost always does wrong.  

Nate, you have a difficult job my friend.  As one of the staunch defenders of expanding government, it is your job provide examples of how programs, new and old, produce results above waste.  You then have to show how such programs exceed the product of private enterprise.

As each program and initiative crumbles over time under the weight of it's own expansion landing squarely on the back of the people, you then have to issue blame outside of government.

An exhausting job.  I applaud your efforts, but don't envy the increasing workload you are willing to take on.  Take comfort in the fact that, in the long run, your efforts and the efforts of those like you will be successful.  Liberalism/Progressivism always triumphs in popularity over Conservative philosophy.  

Eventually the wants of the people always exceed the production of the people, as the importance of personal responsibility crumbles.  The young set their sights on the wealth of others as a means to their own personal comfort without first considering the great potential within themselves.  

We are slouching closer to the progressivism of Europe and many other countries without realizing that we are the only furnace that keeps those countries alive.  When we too turn into a country of people who's wants exceed our willingness to produce and innovate the fires die, and with it our freedom.  The cascade will not simply be felt nationally.  All of those great countries we admire for their massive social justice programs and public entitlements will vanish without the economic fuel required to sustain them.  

You simply see the noose as a necktie.

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. – John Adams (1814)

Pugsley's First Law of Government: All government programs eventually accomplish the opposite of what they are designed to achieve.

Interesting where you place the burden of proof.  As the guy who wants to radically reshape the existing order, I'd say the burden of proof is on you.  It's actually NOT self evident that government is an unmitigated evil, and should be drowned in that mythical bathtub.  It's actually NOT self evident that government destroys the functioning of markets whereever it participates.  You talk as if that's a given but, looking in a clear-eyed way at the nation's history proves without a shadow of a doubt that government and markets have existed together -- sometimes excellently, sometimes destructively -- for the last 250-odd years.

If government destroyed everything it had a hand in, we'd be long gone by now.  The era of modern "activist" government began with Roosevelt -- 80 years ago -- and look what's happened since.  We didn't crumple, or lose our precious bodily fluids, or turn into simpering commies.  We became the indispensable nation, economically and politically and militarily.  I'm not really sure how you square all of your assertions when decades of our political history indicate precisely the opposite. 

[Hoss]

..snip... I'm not really sure how you square all of your assertions when decades of our political history indicate precisely the opposite. 

Puts fingers in ears and screams 'lalalalalalala!'  ??

[Conan71]

Pugsley's First Law of Government: All government programs eventually accomplish the opposite of what they are designed to achieve.

I didn't know he was a philosopher



Nathan does make one good point, that government can spur free-market solutions with new regulations, such as emissions.  They simply dictate a limit for various pollutants and it's up to industry to figure out how to do that in the best and most efficient, and hopefully profitable manner.

This happens some of the time.  I can relate from a combustion engineering stand-point.  It's helped create jobs in the combustion industry for engineers, manufacturing jobs, marketing jobs, as well as jobs at the contractors who ultimately sell and install such equipment (i.e. thermal oxidizers, boiler burners, incinerators, flare towers, etc).  However, the regulations have also trickled down to the point that it has cost even small dry cleaners many thousands more in compliance costs which gets passed on to the consumer.  California, Texas, New Jersey, Oregon, and a few other states have adopted very strict NOx regs.  I recently sold a project to a customer in L.A.  There was only one manufacturer who could meet the NOx regulations for this particular project and it raised the cost of it by about 35% more than what the same unit would have cost if it were coming to Oklahoma.

Nice for everyone on the sales chain end of it, but for every consumer who buys food from this manufacturer, they pay a higher price to compensate for the additional compliance costs of that manufacturer.

I can't disagree that clean air is a good thing, but simply pointing out that there is a yin and yang to every government regulation which comes down the pike.  I also wouldn't have such a problem with government trying to stick it's foot in to solve problems if they could do it without needing to create a 2000 person bureaucracy each time.

[Townsend]

I also wouldn't have such a problem with government trying to stick it's foot in to solve problems if they could do it without needing to create a 2000 person bureaucracy each time.

What?  That's job creation dude.  Good for the economy.

[Gaspar]

Bla bla bla. . .   I'm not really sure how you square all of your assertions when decades of our political history indicate precisely the opposite. 

Beyond programs that fall within the scope of federal government (protection of constitutionally established rights of the individual ,national defense, public safety, and basic infrastructure).  Where has government produced these huge successes you speak of?

Once you have compiled this list, put it in your pocket and carry it around with you.

Now the real question is, are these programs growing in size or scope, and do they show any signs of producing an outcome that exceeds the value of their financial demand on the people?

[nathanm]

Apologies to Mr. Krugman:

The GOPGaspar stopped thinking a long time ago; all it knows how to do is parrot Reaganite rhetoric over and over.

[Conan71]

Beyond programs that fall within the scope of federal government (protection of constitutionally established rights of the individual ,national defense, public safety, and basic infrastructure).  Where has government produced these huge successes you speak of?

Once you have compiled this list, put it in your pocket and carry it around with you.

Now the real question is, are these programs growing in size or scope, and do they show any signs of producing an outcome that exceeds the value of their financial demand on the people?

What's the point Gas? You are arguing this to people who keep on justifying large and complex government.  One of whom insisted government necessarily had to be complex in these complex times.  They further justify it by insisting the wealthiest job creators don't do near enough for the economy.

[Gaspar]

What's the point Gas? You are arguing this to people who keep on justifying large and complex government.  One of whom insisted government necessarily had to be complex in these complex times.  They further justify it by insisting the wealthiest job creators don't do near enough for the economy.

The more people stop reflecting on failure, the more frequent failure will occur.

When my dog chaises a squirrel up a tree, she sits at the bottom of the tree and keeps barking, presumably to let the squirrel know that she is still there.  It's just part of being a dog.


The economic miracle that has been the United States was not produced by socialized enterprises, by government-unon-industry cartels or by centralized economic planning. It was produced by private enterprises in a profit-and-loss system. And losses were at least as important in weeding out failures, as profits in fostering successes. Let government succor failures, and we shall be headed for stagnation and decline. – Milton Friedman

[Ed W]

When government steps out of the realm of government, it almost always does wrong.  

NASA
Polio vaccine
Manhattan Project
Super collider
Hubble space telescope
Interstate highways

[Hoss]

NASA
Polio vaccine
Manhattan Project
Super collider
Hubble space telescope
Interstate highways

Stop trying Ed, the blinders have been on for him for a while.  He always appears to me to be in full Beck mode...

[nathanm]

They further justify it by insisting the wealthiest job creators don't do near enough for the economy.

I wish the wealthiest were always job creators. Most of them (that make lists, anyway) that I've had the "pleasure" of acquainting myself personally are living off someone else's success. Poster children for a stronger inheritance tax. That may have more to do with my former geographical location than anything else, though.

[we vs us]

NASA
Polio vaccine
Manhattan Project
Super collider
Hubble space telescope
Interstate highways

I'd actually like to see Gas's response to these things.  How are these failures of government?

[Gaspar]

I wish the wealthiest were always job creators. Most of them (that make lists, anyway) that I've had the "pleasure" of acquainting myself personally are living off someone else's success. Poster children for a stronger inheritance tax. That may have more to do with my former geographical location than anything else, though.

The whole gospel of Karl Marx can be summed up in a single sentence: Hate the man who is better off than you are. Never under any circumstances admit that his success may be due to his own efforts, to the productive contribution he has made to the whole community. Always attribute his success to the exploitation, the cheating, the more or less open robbery of others. Never under any circumstances admit that your own failure may be owing to your own weakness, or that the failure of anyone else may be due to his own defects – his laziness, incompetence, improvidence, or stupidity. – Henry Hazlitt