Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center

[Jeff P]

This is on the north side of the tracks.  What is there now is hardly attractive.

I know.

I understand that the actual impact on people and events downtown will be about the same as the Moss center - which is negligible to none.

The problems is the perception that it creates with prospective visitors and investors in downtown.

[AquaMan]

I don't know about negligible. If you mean few people are (reportedly) assaulted then yes. If you mean development, property value, and fear factor, then no. Walk over by the Daycenter at the times of day when the hopeless are congregating and tell me it has negligible effect. One of my friends who fights substance abuse refuses to visit the area unless she needs a particular substance. Then with trepidation. She simply won't stay at the center for any reason. Its more than perception, though that would be enough, its the reality of being near the river, near the tracks, near the jail, near a homeless warehouse AND near an entertainment district.

You have to ask yourself, "Is this in the best interests of the program, the city or is it the best interests of the landowner?"

[ZYX]

You have to ask yourself, "Is this in the best interests of the program, the city or is it the best interests of the landowner?"

Exactly.

[rdj]

You have to ask yourself, "Is this in the best interests of the program, the city or is it the best interests of the landowner?"

Bingo!

In my OP I can't believe I didn't think of the Brady Heights neighborhood.  Duh.

If you read the story or the minutes of the meeting you'll find the dissenting vote was Commissioner Smaligo.  He and his wife have remodeled a home in the Brady Heights neighborhood.  This would put the proposed center about ten blocks from his home.  I'm going to guess those of us who oppose this facility will find an unlikely ally in John.

[RecycleMichael]

I just rented a building two blocks to the east of the jail.

Yes, being that close to the jail worries me and probably is a factor in why my rent is affordable. I have been there for four months and have had no incidents so far.

I want to live in a fantasy world where we don't need things like a Juvenile Justice Center or a jail, but I live here.

I hate to admit that I agree with Conan. I think a beautiful new building is better on that lot than what is there now. I don't think I will have that many more instances of trouble after it is built.

Bottom line, we really need this center. My father was a 20 year police officer here in Tulsa and 18 of those were in the Juvenile division. I saw up close the challenges of treating juveniles differently than adults. You can really make a difference if you approach it right. This center has real potential to change all of our lives.

I completely supported Karen Keith when she ran for county commissioner on this issue. Thank you Karen for keeping your promise.

Nobody wants to live near anything that is related to any social service. No one wants to live near the landfill either. But until we eliminate juvenile deliquency or recycle everything, we will have a need for these facilities.

[Townsend]

I think a beautiful new building is better on that lot than what is there now.

Is there a rendering of this project?  If it looks like Moss...it's not an improvement over jack-squat.

[AquaMan]

I just rented a building two blocks to the east of the jail.

Yes, being that close to the jail worries me and probably is a factor in why my rent is affordable. I have been there for four months and have had no incidents so far.

I want to live in a fantasy world where we don't need things like a Juvenile Justice Center or a jail, but I live here.

I hate to admit that I agree with Conan. I think a beautiful new building is better on that lot than what is there now. I don't think I will have that many more instances of trouble after it is built.

Bottom line, we really need this center. My father was a 20 year police officer here in Tulsa and 18 of those were in the Juvenile division. I saw up close the challenges of treating juveniles differently than adults. You can really make a difference if you approach it right. This center has real potential to change all of our lives.

Nobody wants to live near anything that is related to any social service. No one wants to live near the landfill either. But until we eliminate juvenile deliquency or recycle everything, we will have a need for these facilities.

When "ifs" and "buts" are candy and nuts we'll all be happy at Christmas!

No one challenges the concept, the good it can achieve or even the general location. It is the specific location that bothers me. Is there anyone who thinks the location of the current grouping of services is its best use? Even a good use?  Curious that Storey can unload what you all have described as poor quality premises during bad economic times to their old buddies. Market value?

I drive by the much improved location of the controversial homeless housing building at Admiral and Yale and wonder what happened to all the street people that were supposed to be wandering, pillaging and begging in the area. They aren't. And yet we learn little from that experience. Had that operation been built where the JV center is planned it would have failed on all counts.

No, people are not knee jerk opposed to social services seamlessly integrated into areas where they are well planned and well run. They are near Maple Ridge and Ranch Acres for heaven's sake. They are suspicious of a city/county that keeps poring good money after bad, into the pockets of the usual suspects and calling it "the best we could do". Either commit to doing downtown with a plan or give it up and hope for low rents.

[Conan71]

Bingo!

In my OP I can't believe I didn't think of the Brady Heights neighborhood.  Duh.

If you read the story or the minutes of the meeting you'll find the dissenting vote was Commissioner Smaligo.  He and his wife have remodeled a home in the Brady Heights neighborhood.  This would put the proposed center about ten blocks from his home.  I'm going to guess those of us who oppose this facility will find an unlikely ally in John.

I don't see Smaligo's house as a relevant issue, really.  He was saying he was not in favor of Perry starting negotiations because the rest of the funding mechanisms are not lined out yet, if I read it correctly.  The current center is probably less than 10 blocks off in the other direction of Brady Heights and may actually be closer.  You can get a good view of it descending on the bike trail into Newblock.  There were far worse problems created by the tent city people living along the Arkansas River banks by Newblock Park than were ever created by this center.

I'd rather see the entire area bordered to the south by the tracks and the IDL on the other sides not have homeless shelters and correctional facilities, but considering what already exists at significant investment: DL Moss, Starvation Army, and the Day Center, who wants to be the first to start ponying up the $500mm or so it would take to relocate all of those facilities somewhere else?

Move them two miles from the city and sooner or later, development will catch up with them.  No matter where you put it, it will be faced with NIMBY's.  

DL Moss, S.A., and DCFTH were built when any sort of serious re-development was languishing in the Brady District and the BOK Center wasn't even a sketch on a cocktail napkin.  The conversation here is not unlike the people who moved into a new housing development built off the end of Love Field in Dallas, then tried to get the airport shut down because of all the noise.

I frequent the Brady District as do many others on here.  I rarely, if ever, am approached by a homeless person.  This center will not increase homelessness or crime in the area.

I'm not a fan of it, but considering the neighbors (I think Tulsa County Sheriff's Dept. is even between BOK, the tracks, and this site), what other logical use for this property is there?  As well, being close to law enforcement facilities is a logical location.  I fail to see how a juvenile center will make one bit of negative difference to the area.  I suppose the rest of you are struggling with this since no one seems to have bothered to read what the center actually contains and what it's purpose is.  It will remove some more rickety-looking buildings and prevent it from being a seedy, over-grown lot in the TDA inventory for the next 50 years.  Like it or not, it's progress and it is a needed facility.

[rdj]

I lived in the Turner Park neighborhood when the N Yale project was built and was supportive.  I chastised our neighbors for being so hateful in their response.  I moved my family (that includes three children under the age of eight) from Turner Park to the base of Reservoir Hill 18 months ago.  Trust me, I'm not a NIMBY kind of person.

I am aware of what this center offers.  You are correct in saying the center in and of itself will not increase homelessness.  However, perception is reality.  I know many, many people that believe with all this is within them downtown isn't safe because of the jail and is full of homeless people.  I have argued with them until I am blue in the face and their perception remains.  As a result they rarely visit downtown and when they do they don't linger.  

My problem with this project is, why should we add to the perception issue that surrounds downtown by building a "juvy"?

As far as Smaligo's argument in the meeting, do you really think he is going to stand up say he doesn't want it because it is ten blocks from his home?  He's a smart guy and will do everything he can to fight it without playing that card.

[Conan71]

I lived in the Turner Park neighborhood when the N Yale project was built and was supportive.  I chastised our neighbors for being so hateful in their response.  I moved my family (that includes three children under the age of eight) from Turner Park to the base of Reservoir Hill 18 months ago.  Trust me, I'm not a NIMBY kind of person.

I am aware of what this center offers.  You are correct in saying the center in and of itself will not increase homelessness.  However, perception is reality.  I know many, many people that believe with all this is within them downtown isn't safe because of the jail and is full of homeless people.  I have argued with them until I am blue in the face and their perception remains.  As a result they rarely visit downtown and when they do they don't linger.  

My problem with this project is, why should we add to the perception issue that surrounds downtown by building a "juvy"?

As far as Smaligo's argument in the meeting, do you really think he is going to stand up say he doesn't want it because it is ten blocks from his home?  He's a smart guy and will do everything he can to fight it without playing that card.

And as I pointed out, I believe the current facility may actually be closer to his house than 10 blocks.

The entire Williams Center/PAC area was planned, designed and built when the whole area to the north was a complete shithole, yet they still built it and it became an employment and commerce center.  Areas to the east of it weren't much better.

Much like the center at Admiral and Yale, there will be an uproar.  After the project is finished, no one will remember why there was an uproar in the first place.

People's perceptions aren't keeping significant numbers from sell out shows at the BOK, Brady, or Cain's, or walking around downtown after dark to eat, go to a ballgame, have a drink, or watch a bike race.  Truth be known, there's lots of people like myself who feel perfectly safe in downtown (now that Kitchell and his clubs have been run out ) and it's showing in the successful businesses and new developments which keep coming in- long after the DL Moss and shelters were built in downtown.  I've heard of far more violent incidents happening in the Brookside district in recent years than I've heard of downtown.

And I see the negative perception of the myopic few as a good thing.  For each person with a negative paradigm about downtown, that means one additional parking spot for those of us who don't share that.  

The worst thing which ever happens is I might get asked for chump change from time-to-time.  When I sense it coming, I immediately blurt out: "Hey brother, you wouldn't have five bucks you can spare me would you?"  I don't even remember when the last time was I got hit up it's been long enough ago.

And I salute you for moving to the base of Reservoir Hill.  To be perfectly honest, I don't know that I would have been so bold.  I could live on the hill but not sure I'd trust the neighborhood at the base.  That's a great little area of gingerbreads, though and seems actually pretty well kept.

[ZYX]

Conan, I share a similar opinion with rdj. I'm not scared of the jail or anything, but I'm scared of the perception it creates. SO many people out here in Bixby will not go downtown because it is "scary" and a "bad part of town." I try to say otherwise but they don't care. Many of them still believe that nobody even goes downtown. This will only add to their perception.

[Hoss]

Conan, I share a similar opinion with rdj. I'm not scared of the jail or anything, but I'm scared of the perception it creates. SO many people out here in Bixby will not go downtown because it is "scary" and a "bad part of town." I try to say otherwise but they don't care. Many of them still believe that nobody even goes downtown. This will only add to their perception.

Then I say let those people stay away, as you'll never change their perception of downtown.  Myself?  I've been going to the BOK since it opened.  Hockey games, a few other events.  Downtown is really starting to morph into a destination.  That there are those who won't go because they think it's beneath them, or for whatever reason, is their loss.

[Townsend]

That there are those who won't go because they think it's beneath them, or for whatever reason, is their loss.

They're the ones who have opinions about a subject without actually researching to have any knowledge.

They would vote for Sally Kern.

[Conan71]

Conan, I share a similar opinion with rdj. I'm not scared of the jail or anything, but I'm scared of the perception it creates. SO many people out here in Bixby will not go downtown because it is "scary" and a "bad part of town." I try to say otherwise but they don't care. Many of them still believe that nobody even goes downtown. This will only add to their perception.

In that case, the die is cast and you won't overcome their brand of ignorance no matter what is or isn't built across from the jail.  In other words, I don't think this is going to prevent anyone who already comes downtown from coming downtown, and no amount of salesmanship will convince those who think it's a dangerous place now to ever visit downtown.

I personally fail to see why they can't provide the five additional beds needed and whatever other space requirements they may have at the original center via renovations, but if the county thinks it needs a new center it must be so, riiiiiight?

[Conan71]

They would vote for Sally Kern.

I need a shower now.