Opinions on the progress that has been made in the Blue Dome district

[carltonplace]

The discussion on parking brings up an ideal location for a garage which could really benefit the Blue Dome and all of north downtown for that matter.  Put a multi-level just to the east of the PAC on the large surface lot there.  The location is ideal. Get on Google Maps or Google Earth and see how much area that garage could serve and how many surface lots in the area could be obsoleted by this one garage.

They could have a sky bridge connecting to the PAC and City Hall.  It's only a five block walk to the BOK Center and many of the major office buildings are all a short walk as well.  Think about it, this lot is a whole square city block.  Put in a five or six story parking garage and you could pretty well take care of the future parking needs of central downtown.  To make it even more attractive, put retail and office on the first floor.  It would vastly increase the value of development on other current surface lots as well as providing less incentive to tear down existing structures for more surface parking in this part of downtown.

That would also allow for new infill projects on other surface lots that ring the area as those lots would no longer be needed.  Add a tram service to points further away including the Brady.

Yes - exactly. This is the perfect spot for a parking sollution that could free up so many other lots for ground up development. An integrated retail aspect would makes all the sense in the world and would help recapture costs and move the break even date in. Now how do we get the Dewser to champion it?

[rdj]

Yes - exactly. This is the perfect spot for a parking sollution that could free up so many other lots for ground up development. An integrated retail aspect would makes all the sense in the world and would help recapture costs and move the break even date in. Now how do we get the Dewser to champion it?

The long term plan puts parking to the south of the PAC between Boston & Cincinnati.

The block bounded by Cincinnati, 3rd, Detroit & 2nd and the block of the former BOk drive thru bounded by 1st, Denver, 2nd & Cheyenne are the most important blocks left in the core of downtown.  With the One Place development just south of the "BOK Center District" lot I think the lot east of the PAC becomes the priority.  It is an important link between the Blue Dome and the "Deco District" because of the office & living options that have developed there.  A project that provides a well done street wall and provides a great sense of space will be huge for linking those two areas.

[carltonplace]

Lots of space east of the PAC for parking ...and...development.

[LandArchPoke]

Yes - exactly. This is the perfect spot for a parking sollution that could free up so many other lots for ground up development. An integrated retail aspect would makes all the sense in the world and would help recapture costs and move the break even date in. Now how do we get the Dewser to champion it?

I would much rather see a mixed use development like One Place go on this lot. This block has so much more potential to be mixed use, with say a parking structure underneath or incorporated into it than just and ordinary garage with retail on the street level. I would like to see something that has a little office space, apartments, and maybe a hotel on the upper levels with a couple levels of parking underground or above street level and retail along the street.

[Conan71]

I would much rather see a mixed use development like One Place go on this lot. This block has so much more potential to be mixed use, with say a parking structure underneath or incorporated into it than just and ordinary garage with retail on the street level. I would like to see something that has a little office space, apartments, and maybe a hotel on the upper levels with a couple levels of parking underground or above street level and retail along the street.

Any of those are excellent ideas for the space.  I simply think the parking works there as a perfect jumping off spot and tie-in for the high rises, BOK, City Hall, PAC, and Blue Dome.  I got to looking at that lot, realized it represents an entire city block of parking space and figured if you put in four or five levels of parking, you've just found four or five city blocks worth of development which can replace surface parking.  It bothers me no end there's a huge open lot of asphalt just east of Elgin between first & second, as well as many of the smaller lots arranged here and there.

Those smaller lots in close proximity suddenly would have value as brick and mortar, not asphalt.

Who is a developer with the kind of vision it would take to make something like this happen, with minimal hi-jacking of public funding?  Considering what this could do for the CBD and revenue returned in sales tax, how does everyone feel about a TIF district?  I know that's a sensitive issue with some on here as I believe it's begun to be over-used as an excuse for more corporate welfare.

[SXSW]

Or combine parking with an outdoor park/festival space.  The lot east of the PAC is perfect because of its slope, meaning less earth would have to be excavated to build an underground garage with entrances/exits along 2nd which is a good 10-15 ft. lower in elevation than 3rd.

I envision something like Dallas' Main St Garden that was recently built on a surface lot.  Such a park above the garage would have fountains and green space for festivals like Mayfest and Blue Dome Arts, as well as a sculpture garden, bicycle parking, etc.  Think a mini-version of Chicago's Millenium Park with new apartments/condos then built around the park.  The view of the skyline is pretty fantastic from that lot..



If you guys haven't been to the renovated Myriad Gardens in OKC it's fantastic and already very popular.  Some of the elements could be incorporated into this park as well and it could be a really nice gateway between the business district (including the BOK/Convention Center and PAC on 3rd) and the Blue Dome which is clearly visible due to the aforementioned slope in this area..

[Conan71]

That's full of WIN!

[rdj]

I don't know that downtown needs more parks.  I know the Brady District doesn't.

[carltonplace]

I don't know that downtown needs more parks.  I know the Brady District doesn't.

I think The Artist's Cathedral Square idea for a park should be implemented. Its a great concept for a Jackson Square type development situated around a park facing Holy Family on Boulder. I love this idea of subterranean parking with green space on top (but not sure if Tulsans could find the parking underneath) but you loose the retail aspect that helps pay for the spaces unless part of the park is retail.

[rdj]

Let me rephrase, based on the latest names I've heard, the Deco District, Blue Dome District, Brady District and BOK Center District areas do not need any further parks.  We need buildings that create density and provide that "downtown feel" that a well done street wall will provide.

Putting a park on this entire block is just a way to say we developed downtown.

[LandArchPoke]

Keep in mind Land Legacy is still working on trying to build a park in the East Village that would go from 6th Street to 2nd Street unless that project is completely dead. There is also Williams Green that is on the west side of the PAC. There does not need to be parks on both sides. I think if the PAC could approach developers and have them build mixed use developments on the lots that they own then in turn make those a TIF district and use the money to renovate the PAC. I would love to see Williams Green turned into a more outdoor performance area similar to Jay Pritzker Pavilion in Millennium Park in Chicago, just one a smaller scale. The PAC outside needs some help to make it more architecturally interesting. From my friends who were involved with ballet I have heard the stage is small compared to other venues in the United States, not sure if this is true but an inside expansion couldn't hurt I'm sure.

The development to the east though would need to be built in a specific way though to help the follow of pedestrians from Downtown and the Bok Center District to the Blue Dome. A mixed use development laid out correctly could have a small park/plaza in the center that allows for better pedestrian flow into the Blue Dome District or vice versa.

Excuse the crude sketch but just trying to show visually what I'm talking about:

[SXSW]

The development to the east though would need to be built in a specific way though to help the follow of pedestrians from Downtown and the Bok Center District to the Blue Dome. A mixed use development laid out correctly could have a small park/plaza in the center that allows for better pedestrian flow into the Blue Dome District or vice versa.

Excuse the crude sketch but just trying to show visually what I'm talking about:

Your sketch illustrates why that lot needs to be a park with diagonal pathway from 3rd & Cincinnati to 2nd & Detroit as that is the natural progression most people will traverse from the CBD/PAC/BOK Center/Convention Center into the heart of Blue Dome which begins at the 2nd & Detroit intersection.  That intersection becomes even more important if the lots at the NW and SE corners of that intersection are developed and have retail/restaurant space fronting those corners; even better if they have 2-3 floors of apartments above overlooking the park and skyline.  Same goes for the lot between 3rd and 4th, although that would be perfect for a new library or museum.

While I agree with rdj that we don't need parks all over downtown, I think parks in key places are catalysts for development.  Especially in a downtown like Tulsa's where there are no natural features as the river is just outside of downtown and there aren't any large parks in downtown itself.  Key places include the PAC lot which would serve Blue Dome, the new park already under construction in Brady, a park/plaza by the BOK Center if (when?) Page Belcher is demolished, Centennial Green at 6th & Boston, the Cathedral Square idea for 8th & Boulder and the Land Legacy pocket park in the east end.  All of those, IMO, are major improvements to downtown's walkability and liveability.

[LandArchPoke]

Your sketch illustrates why that lot needs to be a park with diagonal pathway from 3rd & Cincinnati to 2nd & Detroit as that is the natural progression most people will traverse from the CBD/PAC/BOK Center/Convention Center into the heart of Blue Dome which begins at the 2nd & Detroit intersection.  That intersection becomes even more important if the lots at the NW and SE corners of that intersection are developed and have retail/restaurant space fronting those corners; even better if they have 2-3 floors of apartments above overlooking the park and skyline.  Same goes for the lot between 3rd and 4th, although that would be perfect for a new library or museum.

While I agree with rdj that we don't need parks all over downtown, I think parks in key places are catalysts for development.  Especially in a downtown like Tulsa's where there are no natural features as the river is just outside of downtown and there aren't any large parks in downtown itself.  Key places include the PAC lot which would serve Blue Dome, the new park already under construction in Brady, a park/plaza by the BOK Center if (when?) Page Belcher is demolished, Centennial Green at 6th & Boston, the Cathedral Square idea for 8th & Boulder and the Land Legacy pocket park in the east end.  All of those, IMO, are major improvements to downtown's walkability and liveability.

It's probably the developer in me that sees the potential of this land and a large parking structure or park would be a waste when you could incorporate development into both of these and then you collect the tax money off of that.

Maybe this will help me show it better. I would do some better drawings or put it into sketchup if I had more time.



Here's some pictures I found that shows what I'm thinking:



Ignore the architecture and think of the buildings as being art deco or more contemporary. But this show a great entry from the street intersection and an open plaza area in the center with retail surrounding and apartments above and then you could have parking underground.

[OurTulsa]

I like the progress to date on most of Blue Dome.  We're using the buildings we've got.  That's great.  I love the passion for Tulsa exuding from the businesses down there.

One day - I do believe - Michael Sager, or someone else, will finish that loft project and beds will be present.  Sak&Assoc. is out of the old S.F. terminal building so I wonder what's in store across from McNellies.  There are a few more buildings to fill but then it's time to start seeing some new buildings.  I would like to see a stronger visual connection along Elgin to the Brady and ballpark.  

I'm not sure what's up with their TIF but they should have a few more funds nowadays.  They could use a few more street trees, bike lanes/parking, road diets.  How about trying some back-in angled parking on 1st St. and 2nd St.  String some lighting over the streets to create some really cool affect.

I'd love to see Elgin Av. someday get so busy that we shut a block or two of it down at night to auto traffic because there's just too many people out.

[Teatownclown]

LandArchAggie possesses Jack Crowley's crayolas!