No Wit and the seven dummies

[we vs us]

This is 21st century America.  This isn't the 1950's old south.

It takes a lot of hubris to believe that.  What favors have the Democrat party done for them?  They keep them on social programs because they only represent a vote to them.  If they truly cared about the human condition of African Americans, there would be more job opportunities and skills programs, not handouts and incentives to have more children out of wedlock.  Dependence on the government is why so many blacks have little hope of rising into the middle class.

As far as unions, how many jobs have they helped create versus the jobs which go to Mexico or overseas to avoid the high price of union labor?

It's not hubris, it's realpolitik.  They have nowhere to go because there are only two other options:  1) the GOP or 2) no representation at all.  Staying in the Dem caucus allows them a seat at the table.  Going to the GOP just won't happen. 

And that's because the catchall argument amongst the right is government dependence.  I know it's all the rage here, but in major cities across the country, it ain't that way.  In actual black communities, the problems are the same as they've ever been:  guns, violence, drugs, lack of services, lack of opportunity, completely destroyed families.  The GOP doesn't have any answers for that aside from tax cuts and more money going to the rich and prayer.

[Conan71]

It's not hubris, it's realpolitik.  They have nowhere to go because there are only two other options:  1) the GOP or 2) no representation at all.  Staying in the Dem caucus allows them a seat at the table.  Going to the GOP just won't happen. 

And that's because the catchall argument amongst the right is government dependence.  I know it's all the rage here, but in major cities across the country, it ain't that way.  In actual black communities, the problems are the same as they've ever been:  guns, violence, drugs, lack of services, lack of opportunity, completely destroyed families.  The GOP doesn't have any answers for that aside from tax cuts and more money going to the rich and prayer.

Personal accountability and not depending on the same system which has fomented crime and hopelessness doesn't seem to be a popular concept in the ghetto, eh?  At some point the black community is going to wake up and realize government has never been the solution for their problems other than locking up their sons and daughters, mothers, & fathers to get drug dealers, murderers, and thieves off their streets and that raises even more problems.

Perhaps Herman Cain could be the sort of leader they could identify with and look up to.  He's absolutely no more an elitist than President Obama and actually knows how to create jobs.

[Gaspar]

There's nowhere else for African Americans to go for political representation.  

I don't vote for people because of the color of their skin.  Many, if not most of the people I vote for have no racial similarity to myself.

Why would you imply that political representation needs to be racially based?

Shame on anyone who casts a ballot based on skin color alone.

[Townsend]

  As for Mr. Townsend, please mitigate the need for personal attack.  The idea is to debate the issue, or point of view, not attack the poster on a personal level.  I'm not against the occasional comic jibe, but you seem to be continuously personal with your vitriol.

Shoot, if you consider a factual post a personal attack then no wonder you state and then reverse course so much.

You make attacks on a politician and then pretend to be delighted when your argument is blown to smithereens.  Then you wait for another thread and start all over.

[Gaspar]

Shoot, if you consider a factual post a personal attack then no wonder you state and then reverse course so much.

You make attacks on a politician and then pretend to be delighted when your argument is blown to smithereens.  Then you wait for another thread and start all over.

I will have to go back and read my posts.  Perhaps we are interpreting events differently.  Thank you for the insight.

[Townsend]

I will have to go back and read my posts.  Perhaps we are interpreting events differently.  Thank you for the insight.

I've asked you to do that before.  (deleting old posts doesn't count)

[RecycleMichael]

President Obama has no more idea what the average unemployed black family is going through than I have an idea of what the men's locker room looks like at Pebble Beach.  

Did you think that any President before him did? I would suspect that he probably has a better idea than any other President before him.    


Do you see a clutch of new minority-owned businesses springing up all over as a result of this?  

Is that what you expect from him? If so, you might be happy with this Commerce Department press release...
http://www.commerce.gov/blog/2011/02/08/black-owned-businesses-outpace-growth-non-minority-owned-businesses

We have a new national museum dedicated to them opening and more monuments and parks, but how's that translating to bettering the day-to-day life of average black Americans?

I don't speak for others on their day to day lives. Talk to gaspar.

[we vs us]

Personal accountability and not depending on the same system which has fomented crime and hopelessness doesn't seem to be a popular concept in the ghetto, eh?  At some point the black community is going to wake up and realize government has never been the solution for their problems other than locking up their sons and daughters, mothers, & fathers to get drug dealers, murderers, and thieves off their streets and that raises even more problems.

Perhaps Herman Cain could be the sort of leader they could identify with and look up to.  He's absolutely no more an elitist than President Obama and actually knows how to create jobs.

You can keep flogging the personal responsibility agenda, but I guarantee you that that's just not the way it's viewed, either on the West Side of Chicago or North Tulsa or 8 Mile Road in Detroit or wherever.  You only see dependence, but for a lot of these folks, the fed government is the only thing keeping them off from living on the streets.  Private enterprise and investment have long since vanished from a lot of these places, and the gov is the only thing left. So while you see this as a precarious soul-killing relationship, I guarantee you that there's no other help or support around.

I'm obviously not saying this is the end all be all of the African American voting bloc, but those are seminal experiences and very strongly shape how that constituency votes.  

And seriously Gaspar?  People vote -- left and right -- based on all sorts of group criteria.  Skin color is one among many.  And pretending it's only a skin color issue is disingenuous.  It's a socio-cultural issue that happens to use skin color as a broad identifier.  Though these days, it ain't skin color so much as heritage.  

[Conan71]

Is that what you expect from him? If so, you might be happy with this Commerce Department press release...
http://www.commerce.gov/blog/2011/02/08/black-owned-businesses-outpace-growth-non-minority-owned-businesses

That's awesome, Michael!  That was during the Bush Administration, though.  I thought he hated blacks?

"Today the Commerce Department's Minority Business Development Agency (MBDA) and U.S. Census Bureau released new data from the U.S. Census Bureau's 2007 Survey of Business Owners showing that the number of African American-owned firms in the United States increased by 60.5 percent between 2002 and 2007 to 1.9 million firms. African American-owned businesses also drove job creation over the five-year period, with employment growing 22 percent, exceeding that of non-minority-owned businesses."

Damn, what's that?  A President Bush success story?  I didn't think there was such a thing...

"

[Conan71]

And seriously Gaspar?  People vote -- left and right -- based on all sorts of group criteria.  Skin color is one among many.  And pretending it's only a skin color issue is disingenuous.  It's a socio-cultural issue that happens to use skin color as a broad identifier.  Though these days, it ain't skin color so much as heritage.  

Reminds me of "It's not hubris, it's realpolitik."

You really are adept at parsing aren't you? 

[Gaspar]

Some keepers on this thread!

The West Side of Chicago or North Tulsa or 8 Mile Road in Detroit are not just places, they are groups of people who band together and call themselves a neighborhood, community, and family.  Government has no more ability to free them from poverty as the tooth fairy.  All the State can provide are the chains of dependency.  It is up to the individual, or the community to escape.

Elections pose important choices for them.  Vote for the person who promises you the most bread, or vote for the person who promises the most opportunity.  If they choose to gorge themselves on government they will surely starve.

As the state grows, one's sense of self-ownership is destroyed, liberty is traded for "security," the human spirit diminishes, and the citizenry increasingly thinks and behaves like dependent children. – Eric Englund

[we vs us]

Some keepers on this thread!

The West Side of Chicago or North Tulsa or 8 Mile Road in Detroit are not just places, they are groups of people who band together and call themselves a neighborhood, community, and family.  Government has no more ability to free them from poverty as the tooth fairy.  All the State can provide are the chains of dependency.  It is up to the individual, or the community to escape.

Elections pose important choices for them.  Vote for the person who promises you the most bread, or vote for the person who promises the most opportunity.  If they choose to gorge themselves on government they will surely starve.

As the state grows, one's sense of self-ownership is destroyed, liberty is traded for "security," the human spirit diminishes, and the citizenry increasingly thinks and behaves like dependent children. – Eric Englund

Aaaaaaand we're back to ideology. 

I can see you're having a hard time imagining that people might have a different relationship with government than the one you have, or believe you have.

It's a biiiiig country, brother.

[we vs us]

Reminds me of "It's not hubris, it's realpolitik."

You really are adept at parsing aren't you? 

Well, hell, I'm in sales, aren't I? 














Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case .

[Cats Cats Cats]

Some keepers on this thread!

The West Side of Chicago or North Tulsa or 8 Mile Road in Detroit are not just places, they are groups of people who band together and call themselves a neighborhood, community, and family.  Government has no more ability to free them from poverty as the tooth fairy.  All the State can provide are the chains of dependency.  It is up to the individual, or the community to escape.

Elections pose important choices for them.  Vote for the person who promises you the most bread, or vote for the person who promises the most opportunity.  If they choose to gorge themselves on government they will surely starve.

As the state grows, one's sense of self-ownership is destroyed, liberty is traded for "security," the human spirit diminishes, and the citizenry increasingly thinks and behaves like dependent children. – Eric Englund

While there are some people picking yourself up by the bootstraps (or whatever you want to call it) will work for.  I don't know that Detroit is in a position (with a 25% population decrease the last 10 years) to have neighborhoods rise up and start businesses there is nobody to go to. 

[TheArtist]

You can keep flogging the personal responsibility agenda, but I guarantee you that that's just not the way it's viewed, either on the West Side of Chicago or North Tulsa or 8 Mile Road in Detroit or wherever.  You only see dependence, but for a lot of these folks, the fed government is the only thing keeping them off from living on the streets.   So while you see this as a precarious soul-killing relationship, I guarantee you that there's no other help or support around.

I'm obviously not saying this is the end all be all of the African American voting bloc, but those are seminal experiences and very strongly shape how that constituency votes.  

And seriously Gaspar?  People vote -- left and right -- based on all sorts of group criteria.  Skin color is one among many.  And pretending it's only a skin color issue is disingenuous.  It's a socio-cultural issue that happens to use skin color as a broad identifier.  Though these days, it ain't skin color so much as heritage.  

"Private enterprise and investment have long since vanished from a lot of these places, and the gov is the only thing left."



You know, I am curious as to why there were, and are still, so many Mexicans working in Tulsa building new homes and businesses, landscaping, mowing yards, cleaning houses, etc. while also creating new businesses in other parts of Tulsa,,, when presumably it would be easier for say a black who speaks the language to do so.  Many of the Mexicans I work with all the time barely speak the language, if at all, and managed to get to South Tulsa all the way from southern Mexico, yet there are so many other people that can't get to south Tulsa from north Tulsa?  

I have watched new Mexican immigrants pool their resources to buy an old beat up truck (and go to a small mexican owned repair shop when needed, thus supporting and creating yet another job), they all pile in it and get to work.  They often camp out in cramped quarters, make lunches at work, (also supporting tiny, entrepreneurial, local businesses like food wagons or small grocery stores and restaurants, in their neighborhoods to purchase food stuffs  ((while many in north Tulsa complain of a food desert in their neighborhood?  isnt that opportunity knocking? )) )etc.  

Having painted for 20+ years, I have seen many a guy who started small then worked his way up to owning painting companies, restaurants, getting a nicer house and vehicle, etc.  I get an occasional reminder when I see a few of them very attentively watching me work to see if they can do what I do, and asking questions.  I know what they are doing, if they can figure out how to do it and make money at it, they are going to do it.  Fortunately, much of what I do requires more than something you can learn or "technique" or I would be out of a job lol.  Plus, yes, I have the advantage of being a white guy that can speak the language.  I could go on, but there were apparently job opportunities in Tulsa, interestingly, it wasn't the natives that were stepping up to take them, or make them.  And many times I overhear what they are making to; lay tile, bricks and stone, paint, faux walls and cabinets, etc.  with some of those jobs they can often make more than me.