Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

i dont think it would add to the already distracted driving public.  I mean FFS have you driven down Riverside near the Creek Casino at night?  That sign about sends me into seizure-land.

Even after they toned it down a bit, the Creek Nation Casino Billboard at 81st and Riverside is still a major driver distraction at a very busy intersection, especially at night.

Drivers tend to be in a heck of a hurry to get into the Casino, and an even bigger hurry to leave, when they are madder than a hatter after having their pockets picked by the N-D-Nz.

Their very bright billboard detracts from conscientious concentration on just DRIVING.


[8D]

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

The key word is "rational."

There are neon signs all over Central Avenue in Albuquerque. They are not causing wrecks, nor are they keeping people away. People are flocking there in droves.

What's wrong with having commercial signs in, you know, commercial areas?

Buncha whiners. If you don't like the lights of the city, move to the country.

As you noted, the key word is "rational."
...and there's nothing wrong with having commercial signs in commercial areas, provided they're rational.  Right now the lack of enforcible regulation is the issue, and the   Sign Advisory Board has sat on it's hands for the 2 1/2 years since TMAPC withdrew it's proposed sign reforms on the promise that the industry-dominated sign board would submit something better.
http://www.tmapc.org/Approved%20Minutes/2005/03-16-05.pdf

Who mentioned neon lights?  The topic was unregulated LED and electronic billboards.  

As for moving to the country to get away from city lights, sorry, it doesnt work that way.
You can always tell when Broken Arrow is expanding by seeing where the new lighted billboards crop up, and skyglow from cities has ruined many a country night view.  Furthermore,  if someone dumped a bucket of used motor oil in front of your house, would you really think it was your responsibility to solve the problem by moving away?

[patric]

I had to laugh out loud with the comment made by a Tulsa Whirled reader following today's report that the Council approved a moratorium:


10/26/2007 7:36:42 AM, Bob, North Tulsa
'I just wanted to bring to your attention something that is really bothering me. At the City Council public works committee meeting yesterday, they were discussing putting a moratorium on LED billboards. Here is what bothered me. They called the Sign Advisory Board to help give them guidance on what they should do. The Sign Advisory Board speaker told them about how they are working on regulating these signs so that they do not blind passersby and cause car accidents. Once the speaker was done, the council started talking about doing a moratorium. Then the Sign Advisory Board speaker said, "If I may speak to you as an LED sign manufacturer, please don't put a moratorium on installing these signs. This will hurt my business."
I was appalled that the speaker from the Sign Advisory Board ends up being the manufacturer of these problem signs.'


Ive sat in on a number of Sign Advisory Board meetings and am not surprised.  They promised two and a half years ago to draft that language in exchange for TMAPC withdrawing it's proposed reforms -- I personally submitted draft proposals myself (still have dated copies).  The Whirled story at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071026_1_A11_hThec27666


Council temporarily bans LED signs
By P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer 10/26/2007
The city ordinance also restricts existing signs' brightness.

The City Council on Thursday unanimously approved an ordinance that temporarily bans LED billboards until May 1.
The ordinance also restricts the night-time brightness for existing and any newly installed smaller versions of light-emitting-diode business signs located on commercial properties.

"This is a very complicated issue and has created some potential turmoil," Councilor Bill Martinson said.
He said the issues range from safety hazards due to blinding light and distractions, to city esthetics with Las Vegas-type signage.
"It potentially affects our quality of life," he said.

The high-tech, larger-than-life billboards project digital television-like images with motion and brilliant lighting that flash and flip advertisements.
The ordinance will give the city time to establish regulations for the new technology.
The types of signs banned include digital and electronic billboards, digital display boards, and electronic variable message signs.

The council's action comes at the plea of
the city's Board of Adjustment, which has been bombarded by requests seeking special permission to install LED billboards.
The board's denial of those requests, due to the lack of any city regulation in the zoning code, has resulted in seven lawsuits filed against the city.
"For any sign people who are unhappy about this ordinance, all I can say is it was brought on by your own industry," board member Clayda Stead said Thursday.

Although Stead said the technology is "awesome," she also said Tulsa is vulnerable because of the absence of regulations.
Cities across the nation, including Oklahoma City, are grappling with this issue and approving similar moratoriums.

Tulsan Greg Jennings told the council he opposes billboards in general because he thinks they are "visual clutter."
But, he said, with the new technology the city could "have a 672-square-foot TV on the side of the highway every 1,200 feet."

Jennings said the smaller, on-premise LED business signs are just as distracting as the billboards, and the moratorium will give the city time to take a comprehensive look at the issues.
"We need to decide what we as a city want before the outdoor advertising industry makes that decision for us," he said.

Unlike the billboards, the smaller, on-premise LED business signs are allowed by right on commercial property. However, the city lacks any codes to address the light intensity.

The city's Sign Advisory Board is drafting regulations that will be publicly vetted before being recommended to the City Council and mayor by April 1.

[PonderInc]

Yeah...every time someone tries to ban billboards, the two people in town (or whatever) who own the billboard companies come to the meeting and say: "But that would put us out of business!"

(Cue sound of little, teeny violins...)

If I ran a business that spewed garbage all over the streets, people would justifiably complain, and my business would either have to change or be shut down.  Billboards and "casino signs" are the same thing.  It's just that they spew trash by design...and it's legal.  

Other cities have had the guts to do the right thing and ban them.  Scientific studies have proven that visual clutter increases stress and has a negative impact on health; other studies show that billboards increase traffic accidents.  My own non-scientific studies indicate that a beautiful environment makes people kinder and gentler, while hideous, ugly places make people grumpy and ugly to each other.

Let's just make the moritorium permament...and ban all billboards while we're at it.  

What's the criteria for being on the sign advisory board?  If sign industry people are on it, shouldn't there also be artists, landscape architects, and psychologists, too?  That would bring a more balanced understanding of signage to the community.

By the way, for a facinating look at the impact of billboards and other visual advertising (including a lot of new stuff on digital signs), check out: http://www.scenic.org/

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Yeah...every time someone tries to ban billboards, the two people in town (or whatever) who own the billboard companies come to the meeting and say: "But that would put us out of business!"

They're shrewd enough to rally their biggest customers and have them pack the council meetings.  At one point even the city/county library allowed itself to be the whipping boy Vs. the mean-old TMAPC because they had plans to add more LED signs to their branch libraries.  The library displays would have been perfect as a simple scrolling marquis, but for some reason they feel they need flashing animations to announce library events.

quote:
What's the criteria for being on the sign advisory board?  If sign industry people are on it, shouldn't there also be artists, landscape architects, and psychologists, too?

Sign Advisory Board

MEMBERS:    7 Mayoral appointees w/City Council approval:
2 - architects or engineers registered with the State of Oklahoma.
2 - sign contractors licensed by the City of Tulsa.
2 - residents with no association with the sign industry.
1 - person who uses an outdoor advertising or premise signs.
TERM:    3 years, expiring on June 30.
CREATED BY:    City Ordinance, Title 5, Chapter 8
MEETINGS:    Third Thursday of the month, 3 p.m., 111 S. Greenwood, Conference Room 1.
PURPOSE:    To review sign regulations and interpretations, recommend changes when necessary, review materials and standards proposed for signs, and recommend a comprehensive program.
STAFF    Sherron Wilson, 596-1613

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/AgencyAuthority.asp

How it works (or did when I sat in on the meetings) is the two sign industry members run the show (being knowledgeable about signs) and the rest of the members just sort of nod their heads...

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by patric


How it works (or did when I sat in on the meetings) is the two sign industry members run the show (being knowledgeable about signs) and the rest of the members just sort of nod their heads...

We need to get you on the board..

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

We need to get you on the board..

I hand delivered my volunteer application to the Mayors office in May of 2006.  

Though im not an artist, landscape architect or psychologist I think the notion is worth considering (as would having just about anyone with some backbone).

[RecycleMichael]

I think you should start with attending some of the sign advisory board meetings. I have attended about four or five of their last ten meetings or so.

The board always was very interested in what we wanted to discuss and was very gracious to allow us input during the meetings. The city staff also kept us abreast of meetings agendas and solicited our advice on some ordinances and education.

Attend their meetings and you will be part of the decisions. We need good TulsaNow posters to attend all these kind of meetings and help not only report back, but help make happen.

I was thinking about going to the next one...meet me there.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I think you should start with attending some of the sign advisory board meetings. I have attended about four or five of their last ten meetings or so.

The board always was very interested in what we wanted to discuss and was very gracious to allow us input during the meetings. The city staff also kept us abreast of meetings agendas and solicited our advice on some ordinances and education.

Attend their meetings and you will be part of the decisions. We need good TulsaNow posters to attend all these kind of meetings and help not only report back, but help make happen.

The Sign Advisory Board meetings I have attended  were very courteous and informative, and there was generally a lot of opportunity for mutual exchanges of information.  Ive gone on record saying essentially that, but Ive also observed that the non-sign industry members are either too timid or insecure in their roles to be functionally representative of the needs of Tulsans as a whole.  

I would like to hear that has changed; maybe RecycleMichael can elaborate on his experiences  with the board since he's had more recent attendance.

Maybe someone with urban planning experience (and by that I dont mean land developer) would be a good addition to the board when the next vacancy opens.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

We need to get you on the board..

I hand delivered my volunteer application to the Mayors office in May of 2006.  

Though im not an artist, landscape architect or psychologist I think the notion is worth considering (as would having just about anyone with some backbone).

In an e-mail dated Dec. 5, 2005, ''Stef'' advises (ORU President Richard) Roberts to build connections with future Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor, then secretary of commerce.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071121_1_A1_hThep42784
''I suggest you mention Kathy, you know there are a lot of my staff being asked and accepting appointments to very important boards. I am hopefully the governor would include oru in those same areas at a state level.''


Oh, that's how it works.
What a surprise[)]

[altruismsuffers]

People also used to be concerned about windshield wipers being a distraction...I have one word for this discussion...BORING!!!  People can do whatever they want on their own land, its private property.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by altruismsuffers

People can do whatever they want on their own land, its private property.

Would you mind terribly if I stored these mounds of chicken liter up against your fence?  I need more room for the trucks to maneuver around the slaughterhouse, and we just hung the extension cord to the new doublewide puppy mill.

[altruismsuffers]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by altruismsuffers

People can do whatever they want on their own land, its private property.

Would you mind terribly if I stored these mounds of chicken liter up against your fence?  I need more room for the trucks to maneuver around the slaughterhouse, and we just hung the extension cord to the new doublewide puppy mill.

 What the  

[iplaw]

Hey Alt, thanks for all the ugly-donkey Ron Paul signs all over 71st street.

[patric]

The major billboard companies are working their way around laws regulating LED billboards and digital displays by playing the "crimefigher--anti-terrorism" card (maybe because zoning folks arent buying the "signs displaying time and temp are a public service" anymore?)


WASHINGTON, Dec. 26 (UPI) -- The FBI plans to install new digital billboards in 20 major U.S. cities to disperse information on fugitives or security.

The federal agency said Wednesday that through a partnership with the advertising firm, Clear Channel Outdoor, large digital billboards in those major cities would broadcast updated information on a daily basis.

Based on a rudimentary billboard campaign in Philadelphia that netted fugitive information based on simple billboard photographs, the new effort simply adds a technological twist.


But then again, maybe the billboard industry might be good at finding evildoers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiOuZWZ1Dac