Debt Debate in Congress

[Teatownclown]

Government is not the problem, the people who elect those to run the government are the problem. — The Omnipotent Poobah

[Conan71]

Government is monstrous when is controlled by corporate interests instead of the people. The right wing's insistence that corporate speech be equivalent to personal speech is the mechanism by which that takeover has been accomplished.

Gaspar, I'm sorry the state and city were making it so hard for you to get your business going.

That's rich.  Take a look at all the major corporate contributors to Democrats, Nathan as well as the pandora's box the SCOTUS ruling opened up for well-moneyed liberal interests as well. 

[Gaspar]

I totally got it.  For Gaspar, everything relates to government and its relative level of intrusion into X (life, the market, your sense of self-worth).  Government is the original sin, and is the bad apple that spoils the bunch.  Everything else could exist in a blissful state of equilibrium if it weren't for the corrupting hand of government -- which spreads like a fungus into everything man does.  Government corrupts individuals, corporations, natural law, the works.  

So when you look at corporate malfeasance, or you look at the failure of markets, or you look at the nature of poverty, the central problem in all of these things is that government is present.  And if it isn't immediately obvious where the government in all of these things is, well . . . then you're just not looking hard enough.

No, sorry to disappoint. 

Government is very necessary, and within out constitution, the duty of government is contained.  Government gets big because that is it's natural tendency.  Those that admire this, do so because they see government as an instrument of plunder.  Government functions very well in this manner, because it can build bureaucratic devices to insulate itself.  Laws can be created and layered upon each other, and functions can be duplicated indefinitely.

As this happens it requires more and more plunder and more creative ways to administer this plunder.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Our little hot bed of "rugged individualists" who don't need no stinking government money has scored big time for $13 million of Fed money.  And we are one of the FIRST states to go running to the Fed with hands out for this cash!  I guess that's what happens - no, not guess - I know that's what happens when a Republicontin is in the governors mansion.  (As well as when a Dummycrat is in it, too.)

And it will generate $130 million in "total impact"!!

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-wins-13.2-million-of-investment-money-for-high-growth-businesses/article/3589319


Personally, I think this is a good thing.  But hyper-hypocritical of the people running things now!

[Conan71]

Our little hot bed of "rugged individualists" who don't need no stinking government money has scored big time for $13 million of Fed money.  And we are one of the FIRST states to go running to the Fed with hands out for this cash!  I guess that's what happens - no, not guess - I know that's what happens when a Republicontin is in the governors mansion.  (As well as when a Dummycrat is in it, too.)

And it will generate $130 million in "total impact"!!

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-wins-13.2-million-of-investment-money-for-high-growth-businesses/article/3589319


Personally, I think this is a good thing.  But hyper-hypocritical of the people running things now!

I'm not sure how many shylocks are feeding off administering such programs, but if a federal expenditure results in a 10:1 payback plus putting more people onto payroll in high tech fields, that's the sort of "stimulus" that's worthwhile government spending.  Remember, one of the roadblocks cited to growing and starting up businesses has been a restrictive credit market.

Some of you make extreme assumptions that there's some sort of hypocrisy in Libertarians, Republicans, or those who identify as being conservative seeing worthwhile uses in government programs or funding.  Conservatives are not against all government spending, they are against government wasteful spending which would be things like studying the effects of social media.

There is a need for government and government can, in fact, help foster new businesses, new technologies, and growth in business via loan and grant programs which in turn create jobs, improve the economy, and add back to the tax base.

For what it's worth, I don't recall Governor Fallin running on a platform of not accepting any Federal funding for projects or improving the state economy.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I would submit that estimate is just something pulled out of someone's back side.

And if that type of investment was all that great, then we should be funding college education to the max!  It IS a proven entity.

The link shows the ROI for college investment - additional income over a career.  Average around $600,000 extra, with some schools providing over $1 million extra.  Even at Oklahoma tax rate of about 5%, that is $30,000 to $50,000 additional revenue.  Plus the benefit of the jobs kept here.  And the population that doesn't have to move.  The increased social benefits of being able to build more infrastructure - think downtown Tulsa.  It all reaches a "critical mass" that allows things like Tulsa's (and area towns) development to grow.  The modest additional tax (50k) is just the tip of the iceberg on return to the state.

And yet, we keep lowering the state's "matching" investment in college educations (by much higher tuition).

http://communitycollegespotlight.org/tags/return-on-investment/

[Townsend]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/07/27/boehner-to-gop-get-your-donkey-in-line.html


Boehner to GOP: 'Get Your donkey in Line'

Republican lawmakers on the fence about backing House Speaker John Boehner's debt-ceiling plan are on his last nerve. In a closed-door meeting on Wednesday morning, he ordered them to "get your donkey in line," predicting that Senate Dems will give in if he can push his proposal through the House. "I can't do this job unless you're behind me," he said. He certainly has House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) behind him, who told other GOP members to "quit whining" and support Boehner's two-step plan. Meanwhile, Republicans are calling for the firing of a top staffer who tried to get outside conservative groups to oppose the Boehner plan.

Per the story he used the "A" word and not "donkey" but hey, the kids are reading.

[Conan71]

I would submit that estimate is just something pulled out of someone's back side.

And if that type of investment was all that great, then we should be funding college education to the max!  It IS a proven entity.

The link shows the ROI for college investment - additional income over a career.  Average around $600,000 extra, with some schools providing over $1 million extra.  Even at Oklahoma tax rate of about 5%, that is $30,000 to $50,000 additional revenue.  Plus the benefit of the jobs kept here.  And the population that doesn't have to move.  The increased social benefits of being able to build more infrastructure - think downtown Tulsa.  It all reaches a "critical mass" that allows things like Tulsa's (and area towns) development to grow.  The modest additional tax (50k) is just the tip of the iceberg on return to the state.

And yet, we keep lowering the state's "matching" investment in college educations (by much higher tuition).

http://communitycollegespotlight.org/tags/return-on-investment/

The rate of return calculator always shows the rosiest picture possible.  Much like our beloved Chamber of Commerce which shows projected huge rates of return on things like the Arabian horse show, river taxes, etc. yet never seems to publicize the actual return.  Of course there's going to be some fudge in there, but if they can provide the numbers using accepted statistical models to make their case to the feds, that's how it works.

So, are you saying job growth programs are a waste of money?  If it weren't for programs like SBA, there's a lot of small businesses that otherwise would not exist which employ millions of Americans.

I agree with you on college education.  I think we should invest far more on higher ed.  I don't think we need to spend more on common ed, I think we need to give more people who graduate the common ed system an opportunity to maximize that into a college degree.

[heironymouspasparagus]

No suggestion that SBA is waste at all!!  I think it is a wonderful thing.  (MUCH better than the corporate welfare to huge multi-nationals, like the oil industry subsidies.)  SBA and the small businesses in this country do more for jobs than all the large companies!

College tuition does more!  We are missing a huge sure bet!!

[Conan71]

No suggestion that SBA is waste at all!!  I think it is a wonderful thing.  (MUCH better than the corporate welfare to huge multi-nationals, like the oil industry subsidies.)  SBA and the small businesses in this country do more for jobs than all the large companies!

College tuition does more!  We are missing a huge sure bet!!

What I'm reading in the story you posted is this sounds like an incubator system to develop high tech jobs in Oklahoma.  Unless the folks in the private organizations managing the funds sap out millions in salaries and new Lexus' *cough* administrative costs, I don't have a problem with it.

[Gaspar]

That's rich.  Take a look at all the major corporate contributors to Democrats, Nathan as well as the pandora's box the SCOTUS ruling opened up for well-moneyed liberal interests as well. 

Both sides are guilty. Just look at the increases in net worth for congress people over the course of their term.  Congress has a constitutional protection that shelters them from many of the laws related to insider trading that the general public does not.  They can not be called to testify about privileged information, even if they use that information to profit. 

For instance a young senator from Illinois went from a reported net worth in 2004 of $300,000 to $3,670,505 in 2008.  I think he got a promotion after that.

In total during the second Bush term (04-08) 41 Democrats increased their net worth by an average of 756%, and 39 Republicans by an average of 168%.

Visit OpenSecrets.org to view the net worth of your representative or you can view a good report here http://governmentgonewild.org/thelist

The same insider trading laws that apply to us, should apply to them.  That's why when Martha Stewart was called to testify before congress it was so freeking hilarious!

I am all for people getting rich, but they are abusing a privilege intended to protect them, not enrich them.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Conan,
Could be - I haven't had time to go in depth at the site.  I get the feeling that it is a sales tool for the community college concept in general.  I am an extremely strong believer in that, too.  (Full disclosure; I attended TCC and also taught there later, for a while - a long time ago.)  There is no bigger "bang for the buck" anywhere in the world.  (How is that for a sweeping statement?)

Community college is even MORE of a great investment for the state.  Even if we can't bring ourselves to do something clever and extremely intelligent - more support for four year college tuition - we should AT LEAST make the junior college tuition a freebie to any high school graduate resident of the state - including GED earners.  This would be a huge boost to the state.  And I feel would do more to draw good industry to the state than ANY of the lame "buy them with tax breaks" schemes we have been using.  Better longer term for many more.  

[nathanm]

That's rich.  Take a look at all the major corporate contributors to Democrats, Nathan as well as the pandora's box the SCOTUS ruling opened up for well-moneyed liberal interests as well. 

You're putting words in my mouth. I said right wingers are the source of the insistence that corporate speech and personal speech are equal. This is largely true. Note that I did not say that Democratic politicians don't benefit from that as well. I can't really say one way or the other who benefits more from locking the faucet of money open, but I can say that each and every one of us who is not a politician is harmed by that view of the world.

Gaspar, what are you talking about? Congressmen can (and have been) convicted of insider trading. The only thing they arguably couldn't be prosecuted for is spewing corporate secrets in a floor speech. And you know where Obama got most of his money? Book sales.

[Teatownclown]

UH OH! The GOPEEr's are getting Maverickity.

McCain erupts: Conservatives are lying to America
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/mccain-erupts-conservatives-are-lying-to-america/2011/03/03/gIQAUm2HdI_blog.html


Looks like Wall Street is leaning on the old guard and McCain't exploded (imagine this guy as POTUS). Too bad they've already handed the nuts in congress so much authority. The walls are starting to crumble, there's no exit and the compromise-rs will be labeled losers by the party of Limbaugh. As Ed said, GOP going down. 

[Townsend]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2011/07/28/mccain-blasts-tea-party-hobbits.html

McCain Blasts Tea Party 'Hobbits'

Sen. John McCain blasted members of his own party Wednesday night, calling conservatives' resistance to increase the debt ceiling "worse than foolish" and referring to them as "Tea Party hobbits." McCain was quoting from a Wall Street Journal editorial that used the Lord of the Rings imagery. "This is the kind of crack political thinking that turned Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell into GOP Senate nominees," McCain said. The remark drew fire from Angle, who complained that McCain was "name-calling" and had no new ideas of his own.

I figured alot of them had oversized hairy feet.