Debt Debate in Congress

[nathanm]

Listening to Obama's presser and his whining that apparently Boehner didn't just drop everything to return his phone call earlier today. He's also still talking about not paying our troops and grandma. This is what happens when you elect someone who has no experience in leadership. We have in the white house the pouter-in-chief.

Plenty of pouting from Congressional Republicans, too. Especially the assholes in the house who refuse to even consider some revenue increases. And somebody's trying to get a big tax cut written in.

[Teatownclown]

YOU not so smart GOP/Teabaggers have short memories.....last time you stalled progress on this level Newt got Newtered and Bill Clinton and his party reaped the rewards.

This is fun standing on the sidelines and watching a sellout of the TP....

[guido911]

Plenty of pouting from Congressional Republicans, too. Especially the assholes in the house who refuse to even consider some revenue increases. And somebody's trying to get a big tax cut written in.

What increases are you blathering about and where is Obama's damned plan? Tell me right now what exactly Obama wants to do other than raise taxes.

[guido911]

YOU not so smart GOP/Teabaggers have short memories.....last time you stalled progress on this level Newt got Newtered and Bill Clinton and his party reaped the rewards.

This is fun standing on the sidelines and watching a sellout of the TP....

The tea party was around in mid 90s? Who knew?

[nathanm]

What increases are you blathering about and where is Obama's damned plan? Tell me right now what exactly Obama wants to do other than raise taxes.

You tell me exactly what Boehner wants to do..

Oh, wait, you can't. He hasn't said specifically what he wants. And the tax cut I'm talking about is another tax holiday on repatriated profits. Surely we can all agree that another damn tax cut isn't what we need right now. They've been coming fast and furious and haven't done much, if at all. If you guys are so concerned about the debt, it seems like we oughtn't cut taxes until we've got it paid off.

[guido911]

You tell me exactly what Boehner wants to do..

Oh, wait, you can't. He hasn't said specifically what he wants. And the tax cut I'm talking about is another tax holiday on repatriated profits. Surely we can all agree that another damn tax cut isn't what we need right now. They've been coming fast and furious and haven't done much, if at all. If you guys are so concerned about the debt, it seems like we oughtn't cut taxes until we've got it paid off.

That whole Ryan budget and cut, cap, and balance which have passed the Boehner-controlled house do not qualify as "plans" I gather. And still no Obama plan for us commoners to see, Nate? And how many days has it been since Reid and his Senate dems put forth a plan? Quite honestly, the GOP is negotiating with itself right now. You may not like the GOP's plans, but sad to say they are at least trying.

Boehner said in a presser about 30 mins. ago that there was an agreement between he and Obama on raising $800B in new revenue, presumably by closing loopholes, as a means to resolve the debt ceiling "crisis". It blew up when Obama reneged and wanted to increase that number to $1.2T by raising taxes on guess who? Don't worry, you would not have to have any skin under that scenario.

[nathanm]

Boehner said in a presser about 30 mins. ago that there was an agreement between he and Obama on raising $800B in new revenue, presumably by closing loopholes, as a means to resolve the debt ceiling "crisis". It blew up when Obama reneged and wanted to increase that number to $1.2T by raising taxes on guess who? Don't worry, you would not have to have any skin under that scenario.

So Obama apparently does (or did) have a plan. Go figure.

I still don't get why everyone has their panties in a wad about the deficit. Even if you argue it does matter, we're set to trim hundreds of billions as we draw down our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus hundreds of billions worth of stimulus not being permanent, plus hundreds of billions more will come from economic recovery.

It's all politicians jockeying for position before 2012. Obama wants to run on a "I cut the deficit" platform. The Republicans would like the same, but are even more hell bent on denying Obama the ability to say that, and seem to be perfectly willing to submarine the whole deal or force him to accept deep cuts to social programs so as to erode his support on the left. (Not that he's unwilling to do much of that himself, mind you) Silly political catfights are going to squander a historic opportunity to reestablish the dollar's hegemony, only this time without that pesky gold backing.

[guido911]

So Obama apparently does (or did) have a plan. Go figure.

An agreement is a plan? Okay.

[Conan71]

So Obama apparently does (or did) have a plan. Go figure.

I still don't get why everyone has their panties in a wad about the deficit. Even if you argue it does matter, we're set to trim hundreds of billions as we draw down our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus hundreds of billions worth of stimulus not being permanent, plus hundreds of billions more will come from economic recovery.

It's all politicians jockeying for position before 2012. Obama wants to run on a "I cut the deficit" platform. The Republicans would like the same, but are even more hell bent on denying Obama the ability to say that, and seem to be perfectly willing to submarine the whole deal or force him to accept deep cuts to social programs so as to erode his support on the left. (Not that he's unwilling to do much of that himself, mind you) Silly political catfights are going to squander a historic opportunity to reestablish the dollar's hegemony, only this time without that pesky gold backing.

That's making the assumption that the draw down will go according to plan, as things like that seldom do.  Who thought we'd be in that smile hole for almost ten years now when we started the mission in Afghanistan?  Apparently we failed to learn anything from the Soviets.

[we vs us]

There has been no officially released plan from Obama to mirror the House Republicans cut cap and release plan, but this is more about negotiating strategy than it is about politics.  This isn't an official budget bill or a moment when competing plans traditionally have to win in the public sphere.  The House GOP has ginned this up as a moment to prove to their constituencies that they are going to do what they promised to do.  So:  they've decided to make very public statements, release and vote on both the Ryan budget plan and the Cut Cap and Release Bill.  Obama and the Dem Senate's strategy has been to negotiate directly with Boehner and Cantor (and to a lesser degree McConnell) to get to a bill that can be sent through and passed smoothly and quickly.  Publicity is good for GOP (makes a loud point, makes sure their interest groups know they're fighting for their interests) and isn't good for the President (every piece of publicity makes negotiations problematic because it shows Dem interest groups what's being given away; and in general publicity impedes speed -- which is of the essence). 

On the other hand, there have been very public (and intentional) leaks of what Obama's offered, and you can find those leaks with some really simple google searches.  When he put up his $4T number, there was a general ratio of 1 dollar in tax increases to 3 dollars of spending cuts.  And he's been willing to throw sacred cow after sacred Democratic cow on the pyre to get this deal -- including things like the Soc Security eligibility age and slowing the growth of COLA, and raising the eligibility age and pulling down reimbursements for Medicare as well. 

There is a lot of complaining on the left about Obama's preference at this point for doing it this way; a lot of people see this as betrayal of some core Democratic values, and for the first time I'm hearing and reading serious forays into the idea of a third party from the left, or looking at serious ways to make Obama more accountable to traditional Dem planks.  Or even just sentiment like "I'll never vote for this guy again."  The problem with this is that he still commands a lot of the grass roots (just look at how much and where his 2012 fundraising is coming from already), so it's still an exercise in futility.  He's decided that "the middle" is where he needs to go to get elected -- which is very Clintonian -- but the problem is that "the middle" is now much farther right than it was in the '90s.  So it puts anyone on any part of the left part of the spectrum in an uncomfortable position of supporting the guy who wants to voluntarily dismantle the safety nets.     

[Conan71]

There has been no officially released plan from Obama to mirror the House Republicans cut cap and release plan, but this is more about negotiating strategy than it is about politics.  This isn't an official budget bill or a moment when competing plans traditionally have to win in the public sphere.  The House GOP has ginned this up as a moment to prove to their constituencies that they are going to do what they promised to do.  So:  they've decided to make very public statements, release and vote on both the Ryan budget plan and the Cut Cap and Release Bill.  Obama and the Dem Senate's strategy has been to negotiate directly with Boehner and Cantor (and to a lesser degree McConnell) to get to a bill that can be sent through and passed smoothly and quickly.  Publicity is good for GOP (makes a loud point, makes sure their interest groups know they're fighting for their interests) and isn't good for the President (every piece of publicity makes negotiations problematic because it shows Dem interest groups what's being given away; and in general publicity impedes speed -- which is of the essence). 

On the other hand, there have been very public (and intentional) leaks of what Obama's offered, and you can find those leaks with some really simple google searches.  When he put up his $4T number, there was a general ratio of 1 dollar in tax increases to 3 dollars of spending cuts.  And he's been willing to throw sacred cow after sacred Democratic cow on the pyre to get this deal -- including things like the Soc Security eligibility age and slowing the growth of COLA, and raising the eligibility age and pulling down reimbursements for Medicare as well. 

There is a lot of complaining on the left about Obama's preference at this point for doing it this way; a lot of people see this as betrayal of some core Democratic values, and for the first time I'm hearing and reading serious forays into the idea of a third party from the left, or looking at serious ways to make Obama more accountable to traditional Dem planks.  Or even just sentiment like "I'll never vote for this guy again."  The problem with this is that he still commands a lot of the grass roots (just look at how much and where his 2012 fundraising is coming from already), so it's still an exercise in futility.  He's decided that "the middle" is where he needs to go to get elected -- which is very Clintonian -- but the problem is that "the middle" is now much farther right than it was in the '90s.  So it puts anyone on any part of the left part of the spectrum in an uncomfortable position of supporting the guy who wants to voluntarily dismantle the safety nets.     

I disagree that the middle is further right.  You might think that because of Boehner being so adamant against tax increases, but he's not what I'd describe as a moderate. I think he's doing his best to placate the Tea Party conservatives which are anything but moderate on fiscal issues.

[nathanm]

I think he's doing his best to placate the Tea Party conservatives which are anything but moderate on fiscal issues.

They seem to be anarchists on that particular issue, what with not wanting to see the debt ceiling raised at all, damn the consequences.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That whole Ryan budget and cut, cap, and balance which have passed the Boehner-controlled house do not qualify as "plans" I gather.

guido,
You certainly got that part of it right.  It does not qualify as a plan.

As distasteful as it is, anyone who believes that this can have even a ghost of a chance without both cuts and taxes is delusional.  (See Rupert Murdoch for delusional...)

Thought for the day; it is shameful what we have done to our children's heritage and future.  As well as disgusting and despicable.

[Gaspar]

There has been no officially released plan from Obama to mirror the House Republicans cut cap and release plan, but this is more about negotiating strategy than it is about politics.  This isn't an official budget bill or a moment when competing plans traditionally have to win in the public sphere.  The House GOP has ginned this up as a moment to prove to their constituencies that they are going to do what they promised to do.  So:  they've decided to make very public statements, release and vote on both the Ryan budget plan and the Cut Cap and Release Bill.  Obama and the Dem Senate's strategy has been to negotiate directly with Boehner and Cantor (and to a lesser degree McConnell) to get to a bill that can be sent through and passed smoothly and quickly.  Publicity is good for GOP (makes a loud point, makes sure their interest groups know they're fighting for their interests) and isn't good for the President (every piece of publicity makes negotiations problematic because it shows Dem interest groups what's being given away; and in general publicity impedes speed -- which is of the essence). 

On the other hand, there have been very public (and intentional) leaks of what Obama's offered, and you can find those leaks with some really simple google searches.  When he put up his $4T number, there was a general ratio of 1 dollar in tax increases to 3 dollars of spending cuts.  And he's been willing to throw sacred cow after sacred Democratic cow on the pyre to get this deal -- including things like the Soc Security eligibility age and slowing the growth of COLA, and raising the eligibility age and pulling down reimbursements for Medicare as well. 

There is a lot of complaining on the left about Obama's preference at this point for doing it this way; a lot of people see this as betrayal of some core Democratic values, and for the first time I'm hearing and reading serious forays into the idea of a third party from the left, or looking at serious ways to make Obama more accountable to traditional Dem planks.  Or even just sentiment like "I'll never vote for this guy again."  The problem with this is that he still commands a lot of the grass roots (just look at how much and where his 2012 fundraising is coming from already), so it's still an exercise in futility.  He's decided that "the middle" is where he needs to go to get elected -- which is very Clintonian -- but the problem is that "the middle" is now much farther right than it was in the '90s.  So it puts anyone on any part of the left part of the spectrum in an uncomfortable position of supporting the guy who wants to voluntarily dismantle the safety nets.     

Sen. Reid has just agreed to sign on with Boehner's short term plan, and they will now work up the bill, pass it and send it to the President to sign.

I bet we won't see a signature on this one either.

A successful debt deal would be his downfall.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEBT_SHOWDOWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-25-12-14-43

[we vs us]

I disagree that the middle is further right.  You might think that because of Boehner being so adamant against tax increases, but he's not what I'd describe as a moderate. I think he's doing his best to placate the Tea Party conservatives which are anything but moderate on fiscal issues.

I think the middle in this discussion is farther right.  And because Obama's the Worst. Negotiator. Ever . . . his starting point was what he thought Boehner wanted, not farther left.  From the Dem point of view he's given up everything and consistently gotten nothing in return.  Reportedly Reid's latest offer is $2.7T in cuts with no revenue increases . . . the only thing they ask is that the ceiling get raised past the 2012 election.  That's even more than Boehner has been asking for.  From a saving-out-bacon point of view, it's a good offer, but from a giving-away-the-farm point of view, it's a total FAIL.