Biden in Tulsa Today

[Teatownclown]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/science-and-not/what-if-solar-energy-received-.html

What if solar energy received the same subsidies as fossil fuels?


I'd really be wondering if GK invested in the failed idea of wind power....and to think they want to do that adjacent to the Tall Grass Prarie Preserve is criminal...

[Conan71]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/science-and-not/what-if-solar-energy-received-.html

What if solar energy received the same subsidies as fossil fuels?


I'd really be wondering if GK invested in the failed idea of wind power....and to think they want to do that adjacent to the Tall Grass Prarie Preserve is criminal...

I love it!

"Don't drill in my back yard!"

"Don't erect windmills in my back yard!"

"Don't put in solar farms in my back yard!"

"Hey! Who turned out the bucking lights?"

[TheArtist]

  From what I heard on NPR, the product this solar company was trying to produce was about 10 times (per the amount of energy) what other solar power products cost.  That, after they had been working hard to figure out ways to scale up and reduce the costs.   At best some estimate that, under the optimal scenario, they could have "perhaps" gotten the costs down to 3 times what solar panels are going for (and they knew those prices had been declining and were going to keep decreasing all the time and thus they would have to keep moving their products pricing down).  So, no real way you could even be partly sure that this company could ever make a go of it.    

The product may have "worked",,, but apparently it was never shown that it could have worked competitively.

 I don't get why either Kaiser or the government put a dime into this company?  Apparently no business plan that could show a way to produce a competitively priced product. And no positive sales record.  Far as I can tell, they never sold one thing at a profit,,, ever!  Would you invest 500mill in that?  What were they thinking? There has to be some part of the story I am missing.

The only thing I can think of was that it was a combo of the company over estimating/promising that they could get the costs down, meanwhile (via China and for other reasons), the competing products prices were dropping like a rock, and then there came a point where it became obvious there was no way they could even pretend they could catch up.

It MAY have been able to have worked on paper at one time, but it still looks far too shaky an investment for the government, or even Kaiser, to have invested in.  But I do have hindsight going in my favor.

[nathanm]

TA, it's called research. You develop a technology, figure out what you think the limits of said technology will be, then go shopping for investors to help you develop it and hope your estimates were correct so you don't get crushed by cheaper alternatives. (even an inferior technology will win most times over a better product with higher up-front cost)

It doesn't help that the Chinese companies are selling below cost right now because it's the only way to make their gigantic volume commitments with the silicon ingot manufacturers. The contracts are structured such that it would be more expensive to miss the target than what they're doing now.

[Conan71]

Artist, don't forget that it also fit the political agenda this administration promised to get the green vote.  Now, the implication that this directly may have benefitted a big Democrat bundler doesn't look too good.  It certainly removes a lot of the image of altruism in the government investment in alt energy.

[Teatownclown]

Looks to me like someone messed up the paper work and failed to get a "take out" agreement ( removing those with exposure to liability) forcing this company to declare bankruptcy as funding was cut off.

There will be resurrection and do not be surprised if the company becomes successful.

[Gaspar]

Looks to me like someone messed up the paper work and failed to get a "take out" agreement ( removing those with exposure to liability) forcing this company to declare bankruptcy as funding was cut off.

There will be resurrection and do not be surprised if the company becomes successful.

I think perhaps the reason they went bankrupt is that they failed to sell anything. 
Just a hunch.

[Conan71]

I think perhaps the reason they went bankrupt is that they failed to sell anything.  
Just a hunch.

And key players who might feel some heat with the government over this could be motivated to pump a bunch more money into this losing horse to stay out of trouble.  Or pump enough in to suddenly pay back all those government funds.

[Gaspar]

Ahahhhhh

Argonaut was founded here in Tulsa in 2002 as a private investment firm for the Kaiser family.  It includes realty, venture capital, equity, hospitality, and even insurance ventures for the family.

[Gaspar]

Today's story on ABC

Beginning in March, ABC News, in partnership with iWatch News/the Center for Public Integrity, was first to report on simmering questions about the role political influence may have played Solyndra's selection as the Obama administration's first loan guarantee recipient. One of the lead private investors in Solyndra was an Oklahoma billionaire who served as an Obama "bundler," raising money during the 2008 presidential campaign.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/obama-officials-sat-solyndra-meetings/story?id=14476848

[Conan71]

Move along.  Nothing to see here because there's not even a hint of corruption.  We all know it's only wealthy Repiglicans who do this to the government.

Now if this had been a Republican crony during the Bush years (Kenny Boy anyone?) they would have him spread over the hood of a car right now.

"And as part of the deal, the Energy Department agreed that if the company went bust, private investors could recoup their losses before the government. Republicans in Congress called the investment "a bad bet" and said it "put taxpayers at unnecessary risk."

One of the lead private investors in Solyndra was an Oklahoma billionaire who served as an Obama "bundler," raising money during the 2008 presidential campaign.

The bundler, George Kaiser, has declined to comment. His firm, Argonaut Ventures and its affiliates have been the single largest shareholder of Solyndra, according to SEC filings and other records. The company holds 39 percent of Solyndra's parent company, bankruptcy records filed Tuesday show."

"Under terms of the bankruptcy filing, investors including Argonaut -- which led a $75 million round of financing for Solyndra earlier this year -- will stand in line before the federal government and other creditors to recoup its losses. Energy officials confirmed this arrangement, saying that after private investors including Kaiser recover $75 million, the U.S. government would have a chance to seek $150 million of its investment."

[Gaspar]

Things are getting weird.  On the US Treasury website, I wanted to find out when the last payment to Solyndra was.  Turns out it was July for 2.3mil.  But then I noticed a history of payments to another group.  Big loans, almost $74 million in one month!  So I looked them up.  Turns out it's 8 different companies that share a single office in Oakland California.  Solar Partners I through Solar Partners VIII.  Their office also happens to be the exact same office suite as Tetra Tech, an environmental consulting firm receiving funds.  All eight of these companies are owned by Tetra Tech.  You may remember who Tetra Tech is, they are another environmental consulting firm touted during the Obama campaign, and already the recipient of millions of dollars for emissions research money.

Not sure why they've created 8 additional companies to receive federal funds but you can bet there's a big doner behind this one too.


DOE-SECTION 1705 (RECOVERY)
Great Basin Transmission   6/01   $5,643,344.94   9/28/40   4.075%   Qtr.
Solyndra                           6/10   $2,356,708.26   8/15/16   1.025%   Qtr.
Beacon                           6/15   $301,613.65   6/17/30   3.196%   Qtr.
Kahuku Wind Power           6/28   $163,366.01   6/28/28   2.958%   Qtr.
Kahuku Wind Power           6/28   $893,427.86   6/28/28   2.958%   Qtr.
Great Basin Transmission   6/28   $9,150,372.09   9/28/40   4.067%   Qtr.
Solar Partners VIII           6/29   $21,890,858.87   10/27/38   4.256%   S/A
Solar Partners I                   6/29   $16,871,054.56   6/27/14   1.126%   S/A
Solar Partners I                   6/29   $8,692,598.53   6/27/33   3.991%   S/A
Solar Partners II                   6/29   $26,582,181.60   3/01/38   4.195%   S/A
Beacon                           6/30   $790,972.44   6/17/30   3.239%   Qtr.

http://www.treasury.gov/ffb/press_releases/2011/07-2011.shtml

[we vs us]

Now if this had been a Republican crony during the Bush years (Kenny Boy anyone?) they would have him spread over the hood of a car right now.

Actually plenty of folks made it through the Bush years nothing more than some localized PR damage (KBR, Halliburton, Blackwater, etc.)  Enron went down for reasons far removed from whether or not they were attached to a Republican President. Fraud, embezzlement, manipulating markets -- all kinds of legit criminal stuff. 

Nothing at Solyndra far raises to the level of criminality, but of course that could (will?) change as the details emerge.  Is it unsavory? Yep, but living through the Bush Administration did teach me one thing:  this is currently the manner in which our government and our economy interface.  Also, there is very little on either end of the equation -- from business or from government -- to encourage this system to change.  So as it is, we have to live with stinkiness that might encourage a desirable industry to flourish. 

(PS. I'm not saying live with blatant criminal acts, but I am saying that things that stink are everpresent and the only methods we have to correct it are the justice system's long, slow, and imperfect prosecutions.)

[Gaspar]

It is sad that this happens in times of prosperity, but it is even more distasteful when it happens in times of economic peril.  You are correct though, government will always serve as an instrument of plunder for some.  This is the product of a fat government.  No one sees all of the putrid wrangling  that takes place under its fat rolls!

Government is about coercion. Limiting government is the single most important instrument for guaranteeing liberty. We're working on a third generation which has little in the way of education about what our Constitution means and why it was written. Thus, we've fallen easy prey to charlatens, quacks, and hustlers. – Dr. Walter Williams

[nathanm]

We're working on a third generation which has little in the way of education about what our Constitution means and why it was written.

If only your pithy quotes were accurate. I seem to recall being educated on the Constitution, how it came to be (including how it was conceived largely to deal with the problems of the Articles of Confederation) and what the individual delegates thought of its various provisions. In public school, no less. In Arkansas, which was around #48 in education at the time.

The problem with folks like Williams is that they speak of the Constitution as if it is some religious text that sprang forth from the hand of God Himself, when in fact it was a messy compromise between various factions within American society at that time. Flowery prose aside, it's actually a terrible document. It's far too vague to have any teeth. On the other hand, that vagueness is probably why it still stands today, unlike the vast majority of its contemporaries.

TBH, I see the Constitution fetish that many right wingers (and moronic survivalists) have as yet another weapon in their mental arsenal to convince themselves that godless commie liberals are ruining their country. If the only argument you have for your position is an appeal to authority, it's not a very good argument, and is probably a poor position. Jefferson, at least, is probably spinning in his grave at such lacking debate.