George Kaiser's $10 Billion Bet

[Townsend]

Isnt there a Billionaires club where all the members are giving it all away when they die or something like that.
I have been a long standing member of the Hundredaires club and I'm taking mine with me.

Per one of Mr. Kaiser's close employees Tulsa gets much of his.  All we can do is wish Mr. Kaiser well and hope he keeps being successful.

[DolfanBob]

Koch brothers... this is a list of their crap. Boycott these Koch owned products. Its easy to do and you will feel better!
http://inspirationgreen.com/koch-brothers-products.html

Koch brothers... What do they do for the greater good of society?

Good lawd ! Are there any Daughters to marry ?
Im sorry but there are many things I can do without, One of them is not my favorite butt wipe. Ya gotta draw a line somewhere. Looks like they got me by my a**
Couldnt help but notice John Zink is on that list.....hmm

[Conan71]

Koch brothers... this is a list of their crap. Boycott these Koch owned products. Its easy to do and you will feel better!
http://inspirationgreen.com/koch-brothers-products.html

Koch brothers... What do they do for the greater good of society?

It would be as possible to boycott the Kochs as it would Cargill or ADM.  Their raw materials are everywhere so try as you might, you'd have to buy little or nothing to avoid the money somehow winding up in their pocket.

As well, we've been down this road before on the greater good issue.  Their John Zink division is regarded as one of the world leaders in low emission combustion technology.  They've contributed plenty to reducing emissions and helping to make cleaner air.

[TheArtist]

Per one of Mr. Kaiser's close employees Tulsa gets much of his.  All we can do is wish Mr. Kaiser well and hope he keeps being successful.

I hope Kaisers foundation isn't hurt by this Solandra thing.  And yes, I believe I have heard that he and his foundation donates, on average, the equivalent of our cities entire yearly budget  . 

[SXSW]

Did anyone read the TW article about how Solyndra (if successful) wanted to open a second plant in Tulsa that would've employed over 1,100 people?  Were talking advanced manufacturing and engineering jobs with good salaries.  I'm hoping Solyndra lands on its feet even if bought by the Chinese so Tulsa can get this plant.  We weren't even on the radar until Kaiser started investing large amounts of money...

[heironymouspasparagus]

Mainly because Mr. Kaiser seems to understand the best works are performed without recognition.

That's the way it ought to be.  The Bible says so...  and even if one doesn't subscribe to that, it still is the best way.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'm pinching the bridge of my nose trying to stave off a migraine right now.  Thanks a pant-load.

You are more than welcome!!  Always glad to help!!!!

But you gotta admit, I gave you a heads up....

[heironymouspasparagus]

Koch brothers... this is a list of their crap. Boycott these Koch owned products. Its easy to do and you will feel better!
http://inspirationgreen.com/koch-brothers-products.html

Koch brothers... What do they do for the greater good of society?

And don't forget that they are number one on the contributors list to Jim Inhofe! 
From one set of low lifes to another.

And yet, Oklahoma just loves the Inhofe cabal.  Go figure.

[TheArtist]

Did anyone read the TW article about how Solyndra (if successful) wanted to open a second plant in Tulsa that would've employed over 1,100 people?  Were talking advanced manufacturing and engineering jobs with good salaries.  I'm hoping Solyndra lands on its feet even if bought by the Chinese so Tulsa can get this plant.  We weren't even on the radar until Kaiser started investing large amounts of money...

The only way it sounds like they could "land on their feet" is if they give up on the technology they were working on and start from scratch with something more cost competitive.  The tech they were using was more expensive than what was available in the first place (even before the Chinese started going big scale and dumping solar at cheaper and cheaper prices).  All the money in the world might not be able to make their tech competitive at this point, and there was no proof that it could have been done even before the Chinese induced price drops.  Plus prices and efficiencies will continue to keep getting better.   

[SXSW]

The only way it sounds like they could "land on their feet" is if they give up on the technology they were working on and start from scratch with something more cost competitive.  The tech they were using was more expensive than what was available in the first place (even before the Chinese started going big scale and dumping solar at cheaper and cheaper prices).  All the money in the world might not be able to make their tech competitive at this point, and there was no proof that it could have been done even before the Chinese induced price drops.  Plus prices and efficiencies will continue to keep getting better.   

There is an article in the current issue of Time that explains a lot, and mentions "Tulsa, Okla. billionaire" George Kaiser.  There is also an interesting article on the Chinese vs. American solar industries in the San Jose Mercury.  It discusses how currently China has the edge due to government support and shear manufacturing volume but the U.S. has the edge in developing new technologies; an excerpt:

China now claims three-fifths of the world's solar panel production capacity. Chinese solar panel manufacturers such as JA Solar, now the world's largest, say companies from Silicon Valley and elsewhere blundered by betting on new technologies instead of focusing on making panels cheaper to produce.

"It's not a pure technology business," said JA Solar CEO Peng Fang, whose workforce grew from 4,000 to 12,000 last year. "If you invest in it as technology first and (cost reduction) second, you miss it. You need to reverse that."

But some industry experts disagree. They say the failure of some U.S. solar panel manufacturers -- with more collapses likely to follow as panel prices continue to fall -- does not mean the sun has set on Silicon Valley's solar ambitions. Ultimately, they say, breakthrough technology from Silicon Valley and elsewhere will be needed to drive the solar industry forward.

While "you can't beat the Chinese at their own game (of low-cost manufacturing), it is possible to go against the Chinese if you develop alternative technologies," said Shyam Mehta, a solar analyst with GTM Research, a renewable-energy market analysis firm. "You can disrupt the current production landscape. It's all about intellectual property, which is what the U.S. does."

Last year, the United States was a net global exporter of solar equipment, recording nearly $2 billion in sales, according to the Solar Energy Industries Association and GTM Research.

"There are huge opportunities to participate in the solar market, which is growing at double digits per year and will continue to grow for many years to come," said Conrad Burke, CEO of Sunnyvale-based Innovalight, which has an office in Shanghai. Innovalight makes "solar ink," a proprietary solution based on nanotechnology that can boost the efficiency of solar cells, and was recently acquired by chemical company DuPont.

Eventually, China's low-cost advantages will diminish, said Robert DeLine, vice president of marketing for Santa Clara-based startup MiaSolé, whose solar panels are made of different materials from those in mainstream solar panels and which competes directly with Chinese solar power giants.

Tim Harris, CEO of San Jose-based solar panel startup SoloPower, a veteran of the disk-drive industry, said that about two decades ago it was assumed Japan would dominate the disk sector. Today, the world's top disk drive companies, Seagate and Western Digital, are based in California. He sees a similar dynamic taking place in the solar industry, with a number of valley companies carving out important slices of the solar market.

"Some will try to innovate and manufacture here," Harris said. "You will have people like us designing and innovating here and going to low-cost manufacturing (areas of the world). You will have people licensing technology to someone else."

And at some point, Mehta said, the technology Chinese companies use to slash costs will plateau.

"We are miles away from where we need to be to compete on a subsidy-free basis with dirty energy," he said. "There still needs to be more innovation. Who will provide that leadership? That's where Silicon Valley comes in. Maybe the solution for the world is for Silicon Valley companies to provide the technological innovation and equipment and Asia to provide the production lines. To me, that is a winning model."

[Conan71]

That's all great until the Chinese get your product, reverse engineer it and produce it themselves.

They are very predatory in their business practices.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The only way it sounds like they could "land on their feet" is if they give up on the technology they were working on and start from scratch with something more cost competitive.  The tech they were using was more expensive than what was available in the first place (even before the Chinese started going big scale and dumping solar at cheaper and cheaper prices).  All the money in the world might not be able to make their tech competitive at this point, and there was no proof that it could have been done even before the Chinese induced price drops.  Plus prices and efficiencies will continue to keep getting better.   

Just shows you don't go into a mature 2nd or 3rd generation market and try to develop a product like it was new technology.  It would be about the same as trying to start up a car company in this country from scratch.  Solar and wind are both mature products with commodity pricing WAY down the price curve.  Very hard to get into that.  And kind of stupid if you don't have an "edge" like a new process or method - or a niche application with lots of room for "value added".  First solar seems to be trying that approach.

Service and accessories are probably the only place to make any money in those markets now.  Like making towers for wind farms (like our Tulsa company does), or "propellor blades", or doing installation of both (solar and wind).  The hardware is all locked up and it is a sucker bet to try to fight $1.75 per watt for silicon cells.

[Teatownclown]

Looks like George will make an appearance before Congress. This will be good. January show down?


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/67526.html

[nathanm]

The hardware is all locked up and it is a sucker bet to try to fight $1.75 per watt for silicon cells.

The only reason the prices are so low is that the Chinese companies are having to sell them at a loss because of their large contracts with silicon ingot suppliers. When the Chinese companies either go bust or those contracts are up, prices will be going back up, barring some breakthrough that allows them to use less silicon.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The only reason the prices are so low is that the Chinese companies are having to sell them at a loss because of their large contracts with silicon ingot suppliers. When the Chinese companies either go bust or those contracts are up, prices will be going back up, barring some breakthrough that allows them to use less silicon.

They won't go bust because their government subsidizes them.

And even UniSolar is selling their fancy flexible cells for under $ 3.00 per watt.  

I could see silicon going up some - maybe even double - but at that point, more companies will move in to fill the vacuum if there IS a vacuum and the price will go down again.  They just won't be a Solyndra.  It's a lot like silicon memory...lots of ups and downs likely in the future, but more and more production, causing more watts for the same amount of money.