Plans for shuttered TPS Wilson Middle School

[AquaMan]

Is the main concern TPS's responsibility to the tax payers?
If so, the way I see it the tax payers can still benefit from the sale of this building below its appraised value if the purchaser makes such improvements and usage changes that it becomes a contributing part of the community again.
If its new owner and use is something that increases the actual footprint property value and by osmosis increases the adjacent property value the tax payer will see benefit. The new owner will pay ad valorem taxes; TPS did/does not contribute to property tax receipts. If the new use incorporates retail business then the new endeavor will also contribute to sales tax receipts.
If it sits empty for a long time and becomes blighted then the tax payer loses as they continue to fund upkeep and maintenance and see their property values fall by proximity.  

Modified punctuation error

Its not that I disagree with any of that or that real estate is not substantially different than aftermarket wheels. Though I would argue that negotiation is the same on the school ground over the apple your mom sent you or over real estate that doesn't fit your needs.

There may indeed be overall increased tax revenue or ad valorem revenue by selling it at below appraisal. That is thinking like a business would. Synergy is something every entrepreneur feels instinctively.  The city, the state and the school system are not like that. The school board isn't going to get much positive play from critics by noting that the city is going to prosper by the taxpayer taking spent capital out of one account and shifting it to the city's account. They don't share the same boardrooms. The low offer sale in some sense becomes a low cost loan to whoever buys the property at taxpayer expense even though the city politic may benefit eventually.

But from what I can deduce, people here think that the appraisals are in error because the first, and so far only, offer is low. Maybe the appraisals were done prior to the commercial real estate decline? Then the asking price should be re-assessed. Mortgage too high? Then fess up and let people know that the school system makes the same mistakes as private homeowners. And, I believe there is some concept that maintaining a school that is currently unused is quite expensive.  I'm not sure it is but I admit to not knowing for sure. Any examples?  Is it more expensive than running utilities, janitorial, insurance risk, on an active school? Surely the security would have to be increased but not enough to balance out heat and air for staff and students with our crazy weather.

Look, I think the neighborhood would like to see this sewn up before someone mentions, group home, homeless shelter, rehabilitative services, etc. and before the gang signs start showing up on broken windows. But really it seems a little early to get down on one knee.

[LandArchPoke]

This site has an amazing potential for a mixed use village vibe. You could turn the old school building into a more of a market with shops inside and then build lofts and more ground floor retail opportunities along both 11th Street and Delaware. The Bama site is kind of ugly facing 11th Street, not sure if they could be talked into making that side of 11th more walkable and installing some sort of streetscape but that would help turn 11th Street into a more Cherry Street vibe. You have the demographics of all the student housing with in walking distance and the Bama workers during the day. So this area has a better potential as a mixed use development then a medical school... not sure if there's a developer around here with that kind of vision though. Wish I had the money to do it 

[SXSW]

If TU had bought it would it have been a new site for University School?  Something mixed-use would be great, or remaining a school; either way just don't want to see it empty and falling apart. 

Blake has mentioned numerous times he wants to see the city focus on revitalizing Route 66.  Now that he is our D4 councilor I hope he advocates that at City Hall.  This site is a critical part of that since it has a full block of frontage right by TU. 

[Conan71]

Its not that I disagree with any of that or that real estate is not substantially different than aftermarket wheels. Though I would argue that negotiation is the same on the school ground over the apple your mom sent you or over real estate that doesn't fit your needs.

There may indeed be overall increased tax revenue or ad valorem revenue by selling it at below appraisal. That is thinking like a business would. Synergy is something every entrepreneur feels instinctively.  The city, the state and the school system are not like that. The school board isn't going to get much positive play from critics by noting that the city is going to prosper by the taxpayer taking spent capital out of one account and shifting it to the city's account. They don't share the same boardrooms. The low offer sale in some sense becomes a low cost loan to whoever buys the property at taxpayer expense even though the city politic may benefit eventually.

But from what I can deduce, people here think that the appraisals are in error because the first, and so far only, offer is low. Maybe the appraisals were done prior to the commercial real estate decline? Then the asking price should be re-assessed. Mortgage too high? Then fess up and let people know that the school system makes the same mistakes as private homeowners. And, I believe there is some concept that maintaining a school that is currently unused is quite expensive.  I'm not sure it is but I admit to not knowing for sure. Any examples?  Is it more expensive than running utilities, janitorial, insurance risk, on an active school? Surely the security would have to be increased but not enough to balance out heat and air for staff and students with our crazy weather.

Look, I think the neighborhood would like to see this sewn up before someone mentions, group home, homeless shelter, rehabilitative services, etc. and before the gang signs start showing up on broken windows. But really it seems a little early to get down on one knee.

That's the tricky part of an appraisal.  For re-use as a secondary or primary school or a combo of both, it might well be worth $4 mil.  Even just looking at it from an acreage and useable square footage, it's going to produce a value.  But for re-use as an auto dealership, medical clinic, youth shelter or even a medical school,  the building simply isn't worth that much as there's going to be anywhere from significant modifications to a complete scrape and re-do.

[AquaMan]

I hope we've become more imaginative than that. You just described a lot of downtown buildings that now only exist in Beryl Ford's collection. This building could be something special or it could be just another nondescript midtown infill.

[jacobi]

I agree.  That building IS pretty.

Btw, the Ford collection makes me want to cry every time I look.

[Conan71]

I hope we've become more imaginative than that. You just described a lot of downtown buildings that now only exist in Beryl Ford's collection. This building could be something special or it could be just another nondescript midtown infill.

Even an adaptive re-use within an existing shell can be more costly than a rape and scrape.  I'm not advocating a scrape mind you, just pointing out that unless you have a similar purpose for the property as the current use, reworking it within the existing confines can get insanely expensive.  Unfortunatley, at some point economic realities override historical aesthetics.  Wilson is a really neat building, and I hope its original character can be preserved.

[carltonplace]

I know this has been posted before and I'm not advocating this use, but just showing that creative reuse is possible.

This is refurbed school in Portland that is now a hotel.
http://www.mcmenamins.com/427-kennedy-school-home

[jacobi]

I was thinking about the whole issue of TPS selling off its old properties today and realized something: WHY THE HELL is an educational entity getting invovled in real estate bidding?!?  When the district no longer needs a property, they should sell it to the city or county (or at least let them handle the real estate end of things).  Also, There are some shuttered schools around town (or reused) that are beautiful that should never have been let go.  I'm thinking of Lincoln and the one just to the west of the west lg of 244 (I dont know it's name).  It's three stories tall and looks like it's being used as a trucking compay or something now.

[Conan71]

I was thinking about the whole issue of TPS selling off its old properties today and realized something: WHY THE HELL is an educational entity getting invovled in real estate bidding?!?  When the district no longer needs a property, they should sell it to the city or county (or at least let them handle the real estate end of things).  Also, There are some shuttered schools around town (or reused) that are beautiful that should never have been let go.  I'm thinking of Lincoln and the one just to the west of the west lg of 244 (I dont know it's name).  It's three stories tall and looks like it's being used as a trucking compay or something now.

Lincoln is probably the best adaptive re-use of any TPS property outside of old Central HS. 

[AquaMan]

jacobi, they are separate entities. City, State and Public School Systems. The properties may have been funded through ad valorem taxes collected by the county or state but the title for the properties is held by the school system. I'm sure someone better informed can explain why. Probably the politics of it all.

The Central adaptive use was ok, surely better than tearing it down, Lincoln had the bad luck of being more attractive as a commercial property because of its corner location on emerging Cherry Street. It was a useful school whose closing put pressure on nearby Lee but gave a former Mayor some development opportunities.

The school near 75 and 244 I believe is the old Washington Irving elementary. It had the bad luck to be located near the best route for the highway. At least they didn't tear it down. My dad attended it as a youth. Gorgeous facade. The building seems to be now used for a catering company. They park their food trucks on the interior playground.

TPS is pretty good about using the buildings if they can and selling them off if they can't. McBirney elementary is now one of the school bus depots out southwest.

[jacobi]

The Central adaptive use was ok

I hate that AEP is there now.  At least TCC using the old manual arts building mainatins it as an educational building.  I wish that central could be turned back into a school.  If we are going to attract families (not just single-in-the-city 20 somethings) Having a school downtown would be fantastic.

The facade on the washington irving is beautiful  It makes me think of TU or Harwelden.  If I were to start an institute or a small liberal arts college that is a place I would love to have.

[rdj]

You think the city could be a better real estate company than TPS?  Three letters for you, T. D. A. 

[jacobi]

You think the city could be a better real estate company than TPS?  Three letters for you, T. D. A.

I know.  It just sick that our land redistribution agency is so *^%*&^ terrible that we would rather have teachers do it. 

[RecycleMichael]

Interesting idea...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=332&articleid=20111202_332_0_TulsaP717997

TPS seeks input on moving Thoreau to closed Wilson Middle School building

By ANDREA EGER World Staff Writer
Published: 12/2/2011 

Tulsa Public Schools administrators are considering relocating one of the district's most sought-after magnet schools and weighing a private school's offer to buy its professional development center.

TPS is inviting parents and other concerned patrons to share their input about a possible move of Thoreau Demonstration Academy from its current home near 71st Street and Memorial Drive to the former Wilson Middle School facility on 11th Street.

Superintendent Keith Ballard also told the Tulsa World that he will likely be taking Town and Country School's bid of $1.5 million for the Fulton Teaching and Learning Academy to the school board for consideration.

"For the first time, we got a bid that should deserve strong consideration," Ballard said. "In addition to the $1.5 million bid, we could save $2.5 million on scheduled bond improvements there and reallocate those funds to other sites. We will be going to talk to the Fulton community about this as soon as possible."

Fulton, at 8609 E. 34th St., closed as an elementary school in 1988. It has been used as a professional development and conference center for many years, but school officials have said another district site could accommodate those activities if Fulton were sold.

No date for a meeting with Fulton's neighbors has been set, but a meeting on the topic of Thoreau's possible relocation has been set for 6:30 p.m. Thursday in the cafeteria at Thoreau, 7370 E. 71st St.

"We have absolutely made no decision," Ballard said of the Thoreau relocation. "I do think Wilson is a great piece of property - I always was kind of reluctant to abandon it. There is also much less bond issue obligation at Thoreau, so I think we need to explore the possibility of relocating."