Newt

[AquaMan]

"He's hoarding all the bullets ya' know. Pretending to support gun rights but refusing to sell us bullets. Known fact. Second term he'll have nothing to lose and will take the guns too. Pass it around. God's truth ya' know.

Oh, and don't forget the big Gun and Knife show in town next week. Get em' before them morons shut us down!"

There's some of your pundits.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Normally I can tell when you're writing tongue-in-cheek, but this doesn't seem to be one of those times.  

Do you REALLY think this is what a 2nd Obama term would look like?

I am NOT talking tongue in cheek here.  I am absolutely dead serious about the US Constitution, and its Amendments.  This is exactly what Obama talked about virtually every day of his public life until he got into the serious campaign for election to President.  He was very active in the efforts in Illinois to deny people the right to own, carry and use firearms - check the state laws on it.  I don't go through or to Illinois by choice and if forced to go through, I absolutely never spend a penny in that state.  Fill up the tank before going through, eat, etc, then wait until I have emerged back into the light on the other side.  If forced to go there on business, will spend the absolute minimum required, even though on expense account.

His two appointments both lied during confirmation hearings - both said that the Right to bear arms was, and I quote - "settled law".  Then when they voted in the minority on the latest ruling on those rights, both made comments to the effect that they saw nothing in the Constitution or court cases that would indicate it was settled law or that it was an individual right.  IF there were ever a case for impeachment, it would be for those two - much more significant lie than Billy Bob ever dreamed of saying.

And finally, to answer your last question directly - no, I do not think this is what a 2nd term would be.  I KNOW it is what a second term would be like.  Because he has TOLD us his intentions.  For years.


In fairness and in the effort to be an equal opportunity abuser - the BATF has had the "Fast and Furious" kind of program before - the Bush "gun walking" thing I mentioned.  And they have a record of being inconsistent, unreasonable, irrational, illogical, oppressive, and criminal (these kind of programs break Federal law about providing arms to criminals.)  They have been an out of control agency for decades.

Check out what happened in the UK and Australia.  How there guns were slowly taken, one type at a time.  And how violent crime with firearms has increased dramatically for both - since the criminals know they have nothing to fear.  And note how every one of the states that has concealed carry has had decreases in violent crime, since more criminals know they might get tagged.

Join the NRA!!

[nathanm]

Why don't you provide citations for your factoids so we can evaluate your claims? My BS detector is going off.

[we vs us]

I am NOT talking tongue in cheek here.  I am absolutely dead serious about the US Constitution, and its Amendments.  This is exactly what Obama talked about virtually every day of his public life until he got into the serious campaign for election to President.  He was very active in the efforts in Illinois to deny people the right to own, carry and use firearms - check the state laws on it.  I don't go through or to Illinois by choice and if forced to go through, I absolutely never spend a penny in that state.  Fill up the tank before going through, eat, etc, then wait until I have emerged back into the light on the other side.  If forced to go there on business, will spend the absolute minimum required, even though on expense account.

His two appointments both lied during confirmation hearings - both said that the Right to bear arms was, and I quote - "settled law".  Then when they voted in the minority on the latest ruling on those rights, both made comments to the effect that they saw nothing in the Constitution or court cases that would indicate it was settled law or that it was an individual right.  IF there were ever a case for impeachment, it would be for those two - much more significant lie than Billy Bob ever dreamed of saying.

And finally, to answer your last question directly - no, I do not think this is what a 2nd term would be.  I KNOW it is what a second term would be like.  Because he has TOLD us his intentions.  For years.


In fairness and in the effort to be an equal opportunity abuser - the BATF has had the "Fast and Furious" kind of program before - the Bush "gun walking" thing I mentioned.  And they have a record of being inconsistent, unreasonable, irrational, illogical, oppressive, and criminal (these kind of programs break Federal law about providing arms to criminals.)  They have been an out of control agency for decades.

Check out what happened in the UK and Australia.  How there guns were slowly taken, one type at a time.  And how violent crime with firearms has increased dramatically for both - since the criminals know they have nothing to fear.  And note how every one of the states that has concealed carry has had decreases in violent crime, since more criminals know they might get tagged.

Join the NRA!!

Wow.

EDIT:  Just . . . wow. 

[nathanm]

Check out what happened in the UK and Australia.  How there guns were slowly taken, one type at a time.  And how violent crime with firearms has increased dramatically for both - since the criminals know they have nothing to fear.  And note how every one of the states that has concealed carry has had decreases in violent crime, since more criminals know they might get tagged.

Somehow I missed this the first time around, but your assertion flies in the face of fact. The fact is, murderers murder with whatever they have available. Guns merely make it a bit easier for them. (or harder, if their target has a gun) We, who have one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, also have the one of the highest rates of gun crime. Go figure.

[Conan71]

The life expectancy thing is a pack of BS. While life expectancy at birth has risen quite significantly, mainly due to continued reductions in infant mortality and reduced highway deaths, life expectancy at 65 hasn't increased all that much (a year and a half since 1990, or about 4 years since 1960, most of which happened by 1980), especially for those in the lower half of the income distribution, and even more particularly for black people. It's a load of smile sold to you to justify stiffing people for a significant fraction of their agreed upon compensation package and directing it to the top. It's a nice story, but it's not true.

I'm not saying we should go back to the golden days of 25 years and you're done, but total compensation hasn't increased for most people since 1980. What gains have been made have gone to pay for increased health care costs.

Even back in the 50s less than 60% of the population was employed at any given time. Even now more than half of your compatriots are employed. 58.4% at last count. Get the recession done with, and we'll be back up to 60% employment-population in no time. In France, that paragon of socialism, 64% of the population was employed in 2010. Of the OECD countries, we're in the lower half. We're in the top ten for people of retirement age, though! Apparently, we have uncommonly industrious seniors.

Also, I'm confused about how an extra two or three weeks off somehow ruins a country's economy. It's not as if they're all taking the whole year off.

If you don't recognize there's a problem with 40% living off the productivity of the other 60% (a percentage of which are on the government payroll which also consumes from the productivity of others who work outside the government) with an ever increasing life-span then I can't help you.

Do you not recall that pension benefits is one of the main issues cited in the GM bankruptcy or the debt crisis in Europe?  Or is that all just conservative clap-trap in your theoretical world?

[AquaMan]

Wow.

EDIT:  Just . . . wow. 

I've worked with several serious NRA members. They seem fairly normal and well adjusted til the subject of Obama going after their guns comes up. Then they get trancelike and begin spewing stuff. Its scary. Don't expect much in the way of documentation.

No offense H. Just observing behavior. I support all the constitution and its amendments.

[Conan71]

I've worked with several serious NRA members. They seem fairly normal and well adjusted til the subject of Obama going after their guns comes up. Then they get trancelike and begin spewing stuff. Its scary. Don't expect much in the way of documentation.

No offense H. Just observing behavior. I support all the constitution and its amendments.

Honestly, all the NRA accomplished with their doomsday scenarios after Obama was elected was to drive up gun and ammo prices for a year or two.  It was great for gun and ammo vendors, volume and profits increased sharply.  At the last Wanenmacher's my understanding was there were a lot of people trying to get rid of used semi-auto rifles they bought at the height of the paranoia for more than what new ones are selling for now.  That's why I don't tend to follow the herd on fear-mongering like that.

I think the 2nd Amendment is here to stay much like Roe V. Wade.  However, those issues keep certain candidates relevant in the minds of voters and also help keep certain lobbying groups like NRA in very good financial condition.

[AquaMan]

Honestly, all the NRA accomplished with their doomsday scenarios after Obama was elected was to drive up gun and ammo prices for a year or two.  It was great for gun and ammo vendors, volume and profits increased sharply.  At the last Wanenmacher's my understanding was there were a lot of people trying to get rid of used semi-auto rifles they bought at the height of the paranoia for more than what new ones are selling for now.  That's why I don't tend to follow the herd on fear-mongering like that.

I think the 2nd Amendment is here to stay much like Roe V. Wade.  However, those issues keep certain candidates relevant in the minds of voters and also help keep certain lobbying groups like NRA in very good financial condition.

Perfectly said.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Why don't you provide citations for your factoids so we can evaluate your claims? My BS detector is going off.

Here is a good place to start.

http://www.nraila.org/

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=15805

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=15804

Ban on recreational shooting.
http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=15781

How many would ever be enough??

Check the confirmation hearings for Sotomayer and Kagan.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Hale DeMar, a 52-year-old Wilmette resident, was arrested and charged with misdemeanor violations for shooting, in the shoulder and leg, a burglar who broke into his home not once, but twice. Cook County prosecutors dropped all charges against DeMar.

In March 2004, the Illinois Senate passed Senate Bill 2165, a law introduced in response to DeMar's case, with provisions designed to assert a right of citizens to protect themselves against home invasions, such that self-defense requirements would be viewed to take precedence over local ordinances against handgun possession. The measure passed the Illinois Senate by a vote of 38-20. Barack Obama was one of the 20 state senators voting against the measure.

Governor Rod Blagojevich vetoed the bill. On Nov. 9, 2004, the Illinois Senate voted 40-18 to override Blagojevich's veto. Again, Obama acted against the bill.

On Nov. 17, the Illinois House voted overwhelmingly, 85-30, to override the governor's veto and Senate Bill 2165 became law.

[nathanm]

If you don't recognize there's a problem with 40% living off the productivity of the other 60% (a percentage of which are on the government payroll which also consumes from the productivity of others who work outside the government) with an ever increasing life-span then I can't help you.

Do you not recall that pension benefits is one of the main issues cited in the GM bankruptcy or the debt crisis in Europe?  Or is that all just conservative clap-trap in your theoretical world?

Why would I recognize the employment to population ratio as a problem, given that it is the historical norm through good times and bad, except for an aberrant period in the last decade when it was temporarily a few points higher? Do keep in mind that 20% of our population is either too young or too old to work. Of the working age population, 7% cannot work because they are disabled. So yeah, try closer to 5% living off the largesse (if you can call living in tent cities we regularly tear down largesse) of the rest of us due to their own choices (or undiagnosed disability). And the idea that government workers provide nothing of value is ludicrous on its face.

Also, why would I subscribe to this ever increasing lifespan explanation regarding pensions when increases in life expectancy at age 65 have slowed to nearly a halt since 1990? I'm pretty sure I outlined my specific thoughts on GM in the thread we had on their BK here.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Bloomberg

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-12/kagan-said-she-was-not-sympathetic-toward-gun-rights-claim-in-1987-memo.html

Confirmation hearings

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/grassley-asks-kagan-didnt-god-give-us-the-right-to-bear-arms.php

[Conan71]

Why would I recognize the employment to population ratio as a problem, given that it is the historical norm through good times and bad, except for an aberrant period in the last decade when it was temporarily a few points higher? Do keep in mind that 20% of our population is either too young or too old to work. Of the working age population, 7% cannot work because they are disabled. So yeah, try closer to 5% living off the largesse (if you can call living in tent cities we regularly tear down largesse) of the rest of us due to their own choices (or undiagnosed disability). And the idea that government workers provide nothing of value is ludicrous on its face.

Also, why would I subscribe to this ever increasing lifespan explanation regarding pensions when increases in life expectancy at age 65 have slowed to nearly a halt since 1990? I'm pretty sure I outlined my specific thoughts on GM in the thread we had on their BK here.

Fine, keep creating your own reality at your own peril.

[nathanm]

Fine, keep creating your own reality at your own peril.

Uh, I based my position on the facts and you have the gall to tell me I'm the one creating my own reality? How about you tell me why it is the information I posted doesn't lead to the conclusion I derived?