Why does Tulsa not get development like this?

[erfalf]

http://fortworthology.com/2011/11/03/sundance-square-announces-three-new-buildings-central-plaza-on-the-way/

I understand that the family behind these developments has unbelievably deep pockets. That being said, they also don't just flush the money down the toilet, they expect results. I'm sure Tulsa has it's version of the mini-Bass'.

None of these buildings individually add more than 100,000 sf of space. And they all incorporate into existing structures (Only one tear down, but in my opinion it was an easy decision... ugly) Plus they all have GROUND LEVEL RETAIL. Not just retail space, but small retail space. This is what makes it possible for all those new shops to get started. Most people can't afford to rent 7,000 sf of space to get started. If you look at all the old large office buildings downtown they have retail at ground level and not just one space, but 3 or 4 or 5 spaces. Perfect for the types of businesses you need to make a place more livable. Why do you think malls/mini malls are so popular? They have small reasonably priced units available. The shoppers will follow.

I know the DFW metro is way bigger than the Tulsa metro, however Fort Worth has this little brother complex and has to fight tooth and nail for everything to keep up with big brother. I think it is a decent example of what Tulsa should be shooting for, all be it that Fort Worth is a cow town.

[TheArtist]

"...The building's design takes inspiration from several historic downtown Fort Worth Art Deco structures, including the Blackstone Hotel and the Western Union Building. The facade will be granite, limestone, brick, and aluminum."

Wow, does beat dryvit doesn't it.

[TheArtist]

  As for your comments about small retail spaces.... "Granularity" the word for today.  The finer the "grain", the better the pedestrian experience.  Large, big block, urban developments can destroy granularity and the pedestrian experience, which kills retail in an urban environment.  They say it costs more to build smaller grained at the street level, but if you want to rent out street level retail spaces, it actually will cost you more to build big block, large grained for in the end you will kill the pedestrian experience and thus your sales.   

[jacobi]

I've wondered why it is that people seem obsessed with 'new' (read 1978 rehash) building.  If another large building were to be constructed I would rather see something akin the empire state building than a glass and steel.  Oh well I don't have the ear of developers so, I guess i'll shut up.

[carltonplace]

http://fortworthology.com/2011/11/03/sundance-square-announces-three-new-buildings-central-plaza-on-the-way/

I know the DFW metro is way bigger than the Tulsa metro, however Fort Worth has this little brother complex and has to fight tooth and nail for everything to keep up with big brother. I think it is a decent example of what Tulsa should be shooting for, all be it that Fort Worth is a cow town.

I love the FTW downtown, I'll take it over Dallas any day. They also have a hotel like our Coney islander, only fixed up and nice. They have many of the same hurdles that we do, but their downtown is several years ahead of ours in its rebirth. Just wait...these types of announcements are just around the corner for us. 

[DTowner]

I love the FTW downtown, I'll take it over Dallas any day. They also have a hotel like our Coney islander, only fixed up and nice. They have many of the same hurdles that we do, but their downtown is several years ahead of ours in its rebirth. Just wait...these types of announcements are just around the corner for us. 

That's probably the key at the moment - Tulsa still has a lot of empty or underutilized buildings.  Until most of those buildings get repurposed we are unlikely to see a much new building downtown for housing (Tribune Loft's is a good example of using an empty building for Phase I - Phase II only makes sense because of the existing apartment building).  We're getting there one project at a time, but it is hard to be patient.

[erfalf]

I love the FTW downtown, I'll take it over Dallas any day. They also have a hotel like our Coney islander, only fixed up and nice. They have many of the same hurdles that we do, but their downtown is several years ahead of ours in its rebirth. Just wait...these types of announcements are just around the corner for us. 

Fort Worth's rebirth is a few decades ahead of ours, not just a few years. It started in the early 80's when the Bass family built 1.5 million (with an M) square feet of office space directly adjacent to what is now known as Sundance Square. Since that time the Bass's have added another half million sf of speculative office space in the form of the Carnegie Bldg (2008) and The Chase Bldg (2002). In addition several corporation have put there marks on the city including the Radio Shack Campus (2004 - now Tarrent County College), Pier 1 (2004 - now Chesapeake), and all though pretty small, Wagner Oil built the Caceria Building (2008) which I think is an amazing building. The renovation of The Tower was also completed in 2005, adding 315 condos to the market. The Palace Block (AMC movie theater/Barnes & Noble) was completed in 1996. And the cherry on top has to be the Omni which added 604 hotel rooms and 97 high end condos. There are far too many smaller projects to mention.

I think the above shows that while Tulsa is making some impressive strides (in reality, a few people are making great contributions) they are a long way from achieving what many would consider a success. Tulsa is a LONG ways from building any speculative office space. That being said, I think Tulsa has tons of potential and can't for the life of me figure out what is holding it back.

I am just trying to figure out what other cities are doing different. I'm from the school of thought that if you want to mimic the results of someone else, you are going to have to mimic the input, however the results aren't always the same.

Fort Worth is an excellent comparison to Tulsa. This is what Tulsa should be striving for. In addition, Fort Worth has several other districts to compete with downtown (like Tulsa). West 7th, University area, Stockyards and the incredibly fast growing Near South Side along Magnolia Ave. Many similarities exist between the two.

[TheArtist]

I think one of the things that is holding Tulsa back is its size and age.  We tend to compare ourselves to cities and metros much larger and older.  Knock 1, we are a fairly small, isolated city.  Comparing us to the Dallas/Fort Worth area and asking us whats holding us back is like folk in Bartlesville looking at Tulsa and wondering whats holding them back.  When your trying to grow as a "city" your trying to attract and keep people who want the "city" life.  People look around Tulsa and Bartlesville and go,,, hmmm, I think I will go elsewhere,,, to the city.  About half my early Clique of friends now lives in the Dallas/Fort Worth metro area, or Austin, because they wanted to get out of sleepy little Tulsa and go to, what around here passes as the big city to go to. And not necessarily because of jobs per say.  One of my best friends for years moved from here to take a lesser paying job in Austin, because he felt Austin was a better place to live.  He was going to get out of Tulsa and move to a better place, no matter what it took lol.  Both of those draws (this is the place to go) and pushes (this is the place to leave) begin to have multiplier effects.  And on our end its one we have been having to fight against.  

 I believe we are about to turn the corner on the desirability front, city wise (sure we got great suburban, but not everyone wants that and you can get that plenty of other places too).  But truthfully, even though we have seen a lot happening downtown, if I approach our downtown as an outsider might, it can still be dead and desolate looking much of the time.  When our vaunted "Blue Dome District" can't even compare with Dixon Street in little Fayetteville,,,, we got a ways to go.  

Which leads to Knock 2.  Our age.  We haven't had the years and successive waves of growth and wealth that many other cities have had that help build up things like Universities and medical districts for instance. Our early super wealth bought us some "faux age", we got a lot of nice looking toys/buildings and such, but there wasn't really the depth underneath to back it up once the oil left. In many ways we are still a young city trying to establish the basics, and again, one that has a comparibly small, city and metro, population to work with.    

Unless something out of the ordinary happens, we will continue to piddle along at the usual, around 2% growth.  While having decline be just as likely a scenario as getting more growth.  Until we do something different, or by chance something different happens lol, I think Tulsa will continue to pretty much stagnate and go along as it has been.  At least we do have people like Kaiser who have been adding things to the city and making it better.  Not just with nicer, better "things" but by helping people out as well.   

[SXSW]

I am from Fort Worth and like seeing their progress.  Even with all of the new development though I still think Tulsa is the nicer city.  We are very similar to FW in many ways but they have a much larger city population and in a metro of 6+ million.  Louisville is another city more like Tulsa in population and how it's developed though older.  I've always thought Kansas City and Tulsa also shared a lot if similarities.

Tulsa is on its way.  Look at downtown in 2005 and look at downtown today.  Night and day in only 6 years!  Now imagine what can happen as momentum continues to build and the impending domestic oil and gas boom starts to be felt in Tulsa along with the overal improvement of the national economy..