How will this affect Tulsa?

[Conan71]

It would be one small step above being a greeter at W@lM@rt!  A very small step.  But I did a turn as a sewer inspector once, and after that everything is a step up.

I can give you the view from the trenches, but in all honesty, you'll probably hear of any changes just before I do.  I think there are three possible outcomes: We remain AA employees with probably losses of wages and benefits, the maintenance base is sold to another company and we get to re-apply for our jobs (like Spirit Aerospace, for instance), or all the work is outsourced and we all lose our jobs.  Obviously, while one and two aren't especially palatable, they're still preferable to the last one.  There's a possibility of a take over because any kid with a paper route could buy up the stock right now, but the debts are about equal to assets. 

From a personal view point, I'm probably a bit better positioned than some of my co-workers.  I just turned 60 so I'm eligible for retirement, though I'm not ready to do that yet.  The PBGC guarantees retirement pay up to about $50K, and mine wouldn't be that high.  But the medical is most worrisome. She-Who-etc is younger than me and in poor health, so she's my first concern.

But the people in their late 40s or early 50s are between a rock and a hard place.  Most employers hesitate to hire them and given the skill sets of aircraft tech, there could be a glut on the market.  If they stay at AA, they won't accrue any more retirement money, leaving them at the mercy of inflation.

I could take the retirement then look for another job to fill in the gap, and that may yet happen.  I've been looking into writing opportunities that could bring in some extra cash too.  One of them opened up a position for a tech writer recently.  It pays well and I could do most of the work from home or the library.   

The rumors were flying when this story first broke.  Some of it was speculative, some was just hateful as some co-workers tried to use the tension to goad others.  There's been an outbreak of black humor that helps relieve that tension, though it's bound to ratchet upward whenever AA has to meet with the bankruptcy judge.  Eventually they'll reveal our fate.  The waiting is hard.

If anyone has a specific question, I'll try to answer it, though the official corporatespeak line is to refer everything to their officiAAl compAAny spokesmAAn.  I can provide the limited view from the trenches. 

Interesting that AA might consider selling off the maintenance base.  MRO services were what was supposed to help turn a cost center into a reliable profit center for AMR.

[Ed W]

One of the rumors was that Lufthansa had an interest in purchasing the maintenance base.  Another revolved around some nebulous purchaser from the UAE.  Rumors are basically worthless, though in one remarkable contract negotiation many years ago, the terms were accurately laid out on the men's room wall weeks before the negotiations concluded.  Imagine that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I can give you the view from the trenches, but in all honesty, you'll probably hear of any changes just before I do.  I think there are three possible outcomes: We remain AA employees with probably losses of wages and benefits, the maintenance base is sold to another company and we get to re-apply for our jobs (like Spirit Aerospace, for instance), or all the work is outsourced and we all lose our jobs.  Obviously, while one and two aren't especially palatable, they're still preferable to the last one.  There's a possibility of a take over because any kid with a paper route could buy up the stock right now, but the debts are about equal to assets. 

From a personal view point, I'm probably a bit better positioned than some of my co-workers.  I just turned 60 so I'm eligible for retirement, though I'm not ready to do that yet.  The PBGC guarantees retirement pay up to about $50K, and mine wouldn't be that high.  But the medical is most worrisome. She-Who-etc is younger than me and in poor health, so she's my first concern.

If anyone has a specific question, I'll try to answer it, though the official corporatespeak line is to refer everything to their officiAAl compAAny spokesmAAn.  I can provide the limited view from the trenches. 

Two specifics;

Couple of neighbors work in the shops and have said they have taken more than 1 pay/benefit cut in recent years (givebacks).  Are you in that kind of position?

How would you feel about Crandall coming back?  Think it would help, hurt, or non-event?

[Ed W]

I read the Dallas aviation blog every day:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/

It's a good source for information and seems to have about a one day lead on the mainstream press.  The writers have good contacts in the industry.  In particular, look at this piece:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/01/a-reader-asks-why-doesnt-the-a.html

I think Crandall said that the board should be replaced.  (If I'm wrong would someone please correct me on it.)  But that same board would have to vote him in while knowing he'd put their heads on the chopping block.  Ain't gonna happen.

We lost 20% of our pay back in the 'negotiations' of 2003 when the company threatened to file for bankruptcy unless we agreed.  It was much like having a gun held to your head while the mugger calls it a negotiation.  Yet when we were subsequently challenged to find ways to save about $500 million in maintenance expenses, we did it.  There was a genuine effort to see that the company and union worked together with a common goal of saving the corporation and all those jobs.

Meanwhile, the top executives pocketed bonuses even when we were not making money.  I think if it were added up, the amount in bonuses would match or exceed the amount of pay the TWU gave up.  That was a sore point and will forever be such.  I've been told - and I do not know whether this is true - that the wage and benefit cuts that management personnel took back in 2003 were quietly restored over the next couple of years. 

There's more....but I gotta go to work.  I'm on a middle shift in order to get Number One Son to his new job until he can replace his car.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ed,
Thanks!  That is a whole lot - pretty much exactly - what the neighbors have been saying.  Your post puts a real world example right here in town to the ranting and raving I have been doing since getting on here.

This is what 'class warfare' in this country is all about - it is real and alive in America - but it is NOT what the RWRE propaganda is proposing.  It is the 1%ers screwing the rest of the population - because they own the clowns making the laws in Washington and many if not most of the states.  And yet we keep voting - as an electorate - for people who are performing actions that are not only directly opposite our best interests, but also against the best interests of the US as a whole.

[Teatownclown]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204542404577156842920091500.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

It's not certain that a deal will materialize. AMR has stressed it's focused on reorganizing and remaining independent. Also, it's not unusual for potential suitors to circle around a company in bankruptcy proceedings.

AMR is currently working on a business plan that it could brief creditors on sometime in the next three months, said a person familiar with the matter.

AMR and its various unions are also preparing for contentious labor talks that could take months to resolve.

TPG made its first investment in the airline industry in 1993 with Continental Airlines, which it helped turn around in the 1990s. TPG partner David Bonderman was chairman of Continental for a time. TPG was also a part of a consortium that tried to acquire Qantas Airways Ltd. but it didn't obtain the necessary shareholder approval for the deal in 2007.

[Ed W]

(Since we seem to be resurrecting old threads, I thought to update this one.)

TWU is in the process of voting on a consensual agreement with AA that is alleged to save more jobs than the plan the company put before the bankruptcy court.  While that plan is bad, the consensual one is only marginally better.  As one co-worker put it, one's a smile sandwich and the other is a smile sandwich with mustard. 

Neither plan invokes immediate pay cuts.  Instead, they have us pay for a much larger percentage of our medical insurance.  It has the same effect. 

As I understand it, if we vote against this, AA has an almost 100% chance of getting the judge to abrogate our contract in the 1113 hearing.  In other words, it no longer exists.  We can begin negotiations on a new contract just as if we were a newly formed union - starting from zero.  Since the Railway Labor Act doesn't provide any incentive for a company to reach an agreement, we'd be strung along just as we've been for the last 5 years of negotiations. 

Meanwhile, the flight attendants have refused to meet with the company since AA hasn't budged from their initial presentation.  And there's a rumor that the pilots will simply refuse to fly if their contract is dissolved.  That's illegal, of course, but when people no longer have anything to lose, it's kind of a moot point.

Also, the retirees have their own hearing coming up.  That's an 1114 hearing and it's likely they'll lose retirement medical benefits.  Most of us have been prefunding retirement medical since we hired in, and AA will return that money with interest.  If we agree to the consensual plan AND the 1114 turns out in AA's favor, we're supposed to get all that plus the matching funds from the company.  In truth, I'd rather have the retirement medical insurance rather than the cash.

The sweetener in the consensual agreement is some early out incentive pay to retire.  It's about $40K and it requires that we give up all recall rights and seniority.  The fly in the ointment is that AA gets to determine how many can leave and when.  That's not specified in the contract.  I'd be very tempted to take it, but as I wrote earlier in this thread, I have to be more concerned about Mary's medical coverage, and if AA succeeds in eliminating medical coverage for retirees, I'll just keep working. 

It's late and I'm starting to ramble, so I'll end here.  If anyone has a question, don't hesitate to ask.

[heironymouspasparagus]

(Since we seem to be resurrecting old threads, I thought to update this one.)

TWU is in the process of voting on a consensual agreement with AA that is alleged to save more jobs than the plan the company put before the bankruptcy court.  While that plan is bad, the consensual one is only marginally better.  As one co-worker put it, one's a smile sandwich and the other is a smile sandwich with mustard. 

Neither plan invokes immediate pay cuts.  Instead, they have us pay for a much larger percentage of our medical insurance.  It has the same effect. 

As I understand it, if we vote against this, AA has an almost 100% chance of getting the judge to abrogate our contract in the 1113 hearing.  In other words, it no longer exists.  We can begin negotiations on a new contract just as if we were a newly formed union - starting from zero.  Since the Railway Labor Act doesn't provide any incentive for a company to reach an agreement, we'd be strung along just as we've been for the last 5 years of negotiations. 

Meanwhile, the flight attendants have refused to meet with the company since AA hasn't budged from their initial presentation.  And there's a rumor that the pilots will simply refuse to fly if their contract is dissolved.  That's illegal, of course, but when people no longer have anything to lose, it's kind of a moot point.

Also, the retirees have their own hearing coming up.  That's an 1114 hearing and it's likely they'll lose retirement medical benefits.  Most of us have been prefunding retirement medical since we hired in, and AA will return that money with interest.  If we agree to the consensual plan AND the 1114 turns out in AA's favor, we're supposed to get all that plus the matching funds from the company.  In truth, I'd rather have the retirement medical insurance rather than the cash.

The sweetener in the consensual agreement is some early out incentive pay to retire.  It's about $40K and it requires that we give up all recall rights and seniority.  The fly in the ointment is that AA gets to determine how many can leave and when.  That's not specified in the contract.  I'd be very tempted to take it, but as I wrote earlier in this thread, I have to be more concerned about Mary's medical coverage, and if AA succeeds in eliminating medical coverage for retirees, I'll just keep working. 

It's late and I'm starting to ramble, so I'll end here.  If anyone has a question, don't hesitate to ask.

Good luck!  Hope it gets better!

I am afraid it won't...

If the contract is set aside, the union will just put the previous text on the table as the starting point.  The problem there is the givebacks that so many unions are caving into these days.

[we vs us]

(Since we seem to be resurrecting old threads, I thought to update this one.)

TWU is in the process of voting on a consensual agreement with AA that is alleged to save more jobs than the plan the company put before the bankruptcy court.  While that plan is bad, the consensual one is only marginally better.  As one co-worker put it, one's a smile sandwich and the other is a smile sandwich with mustard. 

Neither plan invokes immediate pay cuts.  Instead, they have us pay for a much larger percentage of our medical insurance.  It has the same effect. 

As I understand it, if we vote against this, AA has an almost 100% chance of getting the judge to abrogate our contract in the 1113 hearing.  In other words, it no longer exists.  We can begin negotiations on a new contract just as if we were a newly formed union - starting from zero.  Since the Railway Labor Act doesn't provide any incentive for a company to reach an agreement, we'd be strung along just as we've been for the last 5 years of negotiations. 

Meanwhile, the flight attendants have refused to meet with the company since AA hasn't budged from their initial presentation.  And there's a rumor that the pilots will simply refuse to fly if their contract is dissolved.  That's illegal, of course, but when people no longer have anything to lose, it's kind of a moot point.

Also, the retirees have their own hearing coming up.  That's an 1114 hearing and it's likely they'll lose retirement medical benefits.  Most of us have been prefunding retirement medical since we hired in, and AA will return that money with interest.  If we agree to the consensual plan AND the 1114 turns out in AA's favor, we're supposed to get all that plus the matching funds from the company.  In truth, I'd rather have the retirement medical insurance rather than the cash.

The sweetener in the consensual agreement is some early out incentive pay to retire.  It's about $40K and it requires that we give up all recall rights and seniority.  The fly in the ointment is that AA gets to determine how many can leave and when.  That's not specified in the contract.  I'd be very tempted to take it, but as I wrote earlier in this thread, I have to be more concerned about Mary's medical coverage, and if AA succeeds in eliminating medical coverage for retirees, I'll just keep working. 

It's late and I'm starting to ramble, so I'll end here.  If anyone has a question, don't hesitate to ask.

There's something exquisitely depressing about this, and I think it's because most of us never hear about the nuts and bolts of these types of negotiations.  We definitely hear about the results in the news, and we sometimes hear about the pre-negotiation media posturing if the contract being worked on (voided?) is huge enough.  But you never really get to see just how much leverage a company has over its employees until it's contract negotiation time.  You also never see exactly where it's applied.     

It's a major tell that asking you to cover more of your own healthcare is a core management demand.  That points up a sad truth of the whole medical-coverage-as-benefit argument.  It's not the benefit itself that costs too much, it's the care being paid for.  That's a crucial distinction that we never hear talked about.  Even during the HCR debate, Obama was never particularly clear about what costs he was trying to contain.

Anyway, I'm sorry that this is the process and that the process seems to be grinding forward to what seems the inevitable conclusion, which is a hollowed out contract a shred of its former self.  Not a good thing, really, at all. 

/derail.

[Ed W]

I was looking over some of the information today.  While it's true that AA will offer qualified employees about $40K to take early retirement, at the same time they're increasing the retiree's medical insurance fee to just under one thousand dollars per month for an employee and spouse.  That would be roughly half my retirement pay each month.  So if I retired, I'd see a 75% pay cut.  I can't afford that and I can't afford to be without insurance, so I'll probably keep working if at all possible.

[Conan71]

I was looking over some of the information today.  While it's true that AA will offer qualified employees about $40K to take early retirement, at the same time they're increasing the retiree's medical insurance fee to just under one thousand dollars per month for an employee and spouse.  That would be roughly half my retirement pay each month.  So if I retired, I'd see a 75% pay cut.  I can't afford that and I can't afford to be without insurance, so I'll probably keep working if at all possible.

Look, I'm the first to admit I'm not a union fan.  I've also known several people who bragged about how much they were getting over on AA.  One bragged about getting three to four hours of sleep on their shift at AA.  He was also fond of calling in with migraines when he was hung over.  A machinist I knew was a well-known sprint car racer in the area who bragged one time that over the previous year, he'd machined far more parts for sprint cars in his work area than he had airplane parts.  Another had an affinity for making custom motorcycle parts on his shift.  I had yet another drop by my shop one time when I had my own business offering to sell me "surplus" reamers and end mill bits that AA had to "age from inventory" so they allowed him to take them home.  These were new tools still with the rubbery coating over the cutting bit.  I refused to buy them as I won't support theft.  

That said, I realize those may have been the only four jagoffs working at AA, and everyone else is a company man who works their entire shift, doesn't stop to play dominoes, and doesn't steal tools and parts from the parts bin or tool crib.  I've also known some really honorable people who worked their whole lives there.  I guess my big issue with unions is many workers tend to think they work for the union and forget they wouldn't have a job in the first place if it were not for the employer.  Working closely with union laborers in a variety of situations, I'm frequently within earshot of all sorts of negative slurs hurled at the employing company.  I don't know if the union mentality cultivates it or I only seem to know the few union a-holes in Tulsa County.

I may not be much of a union guy, but a deal is a deal and if you spent the majority of your adult life at AA and expected a certain retirement, you should get that retirement, Ed.  I don't envy the position you are in and I honestly have to say it bothers me no end that a corporation can negotiate a contract with its labor force then march into court and have the entire agreement nullified by the judgement of one judge.  Best of luck to you.

[nathanm]

I may not be much of a union guy, but a deal is a deal and if you spent the majority of your adult life at AA and expected a certain retirement, you should get that retirement, Ed.  I don't envy the position you are in and I honestly have to say it bothers me no end that a corporation can negotiate a contract with its labor force then march into court and have the entire agreement nullified by the judgement of one judge.  Best of luck to you.

I don't doubt that some, or even many, take advantage of union rules so they can skate by while others do the real work (although that happens plenty in non-union work, too!), but this is precisely why strong unions are important. If we can get sane and enforced work rules alongside, that's all to the good.

[Conan71]

I don't doubt that some, or even many, take advantage of union rules so they can skate by while others do the real work (although that happens plenty in non-union work, too!), but this is precisely why strong unions are important. If we can get sane and enforced work rules alongside, that's all to the good.

TWU, by all accounts, is a strong union.  I guess I'm missing your point.

[Ed W]

TWU, by all accounts, is a strong union.  I guess I'm missing your point.

I grew up near Pittsburgh, where strikes sometimes involved violence.  By comparison, TWU is middle-of-the-road.  My Dad's union was composed of salaried employees, and it was milquetoast.

Given the demographics of Oklahoma's population, there are numerous TWU members who can only be described as conservatives.  I wouldn't be surprised to find they're a majority.  But like any other workplace, there are some who shirk their obligations.  That isn't exclusive to union shops, and in fact, I could find some in management who really need to find more suitable employment.  People will be people, after all.

This is the first union job I've had.  My previous one was in electronics manufacturing, where the company hired a consultant to tell them how to keep a union out.  (As an aside, perhaps I could find work as a consultant too, since I have both writing skills and a good line of BS!)  He told them to develop a very detailed employee relations handbook and to stick to the guidelines exactly as if a union were there policing it.  And you know what?  It worked.  Or at least it did until the layoffs reached someone's well-connected son-in-law.  Then it went straight to h#ll.  Chaos ensued on the factory floor and the company was eventually sold to a competitor.  That was years after I left.  I don't miss it.

Gotta go.  My OT shift starts at 4AM.  Since AA has few qualms about taking my money, I can't see any reason to have doubts about taking theirs.  Tomorrow's work is computer mods.  It's not particularly hard, but it will keep me busy for 8 hours and the time should pass quickly.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I may not be much of a union guy, but a deal is a deal and if you spent the majority of your adult life at AA and expected a certain retirement, you should get that retirement, Ed.  I don't envy the position you are in and I honestly have to say it bothers me no end that a corporation can negotiate a contract with its labor force then march into court and have the entire agreement nullified by the judgement of one judge.  Best of luck to you.

That mentality/action by the "Harvard MBA" types is pretty much the gist of a significant amount of the bitching I do here.  And the last 30 years or so of them being able to buy the US Congress to enable their bad behavior.