Should pseudoephedrine be by prescription only in Oklahoma?

[nathanm]

What would you do then?

Accept the fact that we can't force people into smart decisions. Recognize the fact that the present cure is far worse than the disease. Legalize and tax. Use the taxes to fund treatment for when people finally realize that they need to get off the stuff.

[patric]

Accept the fact that we can't force people into smart decisions. Recognize the fact that the present cure is far worse than the disease. Legalize and tax. Use the taxes to fund treatment for when people finally realize that they need to get off the stuff.

Too many people (on both sides of the law) depend on it staying illegal.

[nathanm]

Too many people (on both sides of the law) depend on it staying illegal.

They need to be forced to acknowledge that their policy stance is literally killing people as surely as if they pointed a gun and pulled the trigger themselves. Giving power to corrupt organizations is tantamount to being part of a corrupt organization.

[AquaMan]

Accept the fact that we can't force people into smart decisions. Recognize the fact that the present cure is far worse than the disease. Legalize and tax. Use the taxes to fund treatment for when people finally realize that they need to get off the stuff.

I won't argue those remarks because they are more bumper sticker than real. Unfortunately that is what decisions are usually based on. I will agree funding treatment is our smartest move and decriminalizing is critical. Legalize? No. How losing the convenience of nasal medications over counter is far worse than rolling meth labs is ....uh...hard to swallow.

Ok, i will argue them. I could just as easily suggest that there is no reason for education if people cannot be influenced to make smart decisions. Save some money there and apply it to recovery of financial depressions when folks buy fraudulent securities.  And, lets just take practicality to its final step: Legalize prostitution, bestiality, child porn, cocaine, laudenum, horizontal drilling, dumping pesticides in the river...AND TAX them to fund treatment and clean up! GENIUS! Tell Ron Paul quick he's close to winning in Iowa and this logic could put him over the top!!

[nathanm]

I won't argue those remarks because they are more bumper sticker than real. Unfortunately that is what decisions are usually based on. I will agree funding treatment is our smartest move and decriminalizing is critical. Legalize? No. How losing the convenience of nasal medications over counter is far worse than rolling meth labs is ....uh...hard to swallow.

Yes, drug-related murders in Mexico are just bumper sticker platitudes. As long as it's illegal, you give the criminal element more power than they would otherwise have. Also, you may want to consult a dictionary regarding the difference between "educate" and "force". You can educate teenagers on the dangers of fornication, but that doesn't mean they won't do it. Similarly, you can teach kids the dangers of drugs, but you can't force them to make a particular decision.

People are already making the decision we don't want, and it's driving a war in Mexico and elsewhere.

[custosnox]

I won't argue those remarks because they are more bumper sticker than real. Unfortunately that is what decisions are usually based on. I will agree funding treatment is our smartest move and decriminalizing is critical. Legalize? No. How losing the convenience of nasal medications over counter is far worse than rolling meth labs is ....uh...hard to swallow.

Ok, i will argue them. I could just as easily suggest that there is no reason for education if people cannot be influenced to make smart decisions. Save some money there and apply it to recovery of financial depressions when folks buy fraudulent securities.  And, lets just take practicality to its final step: Legalize prostitution, bestiality, child porn, cocaine, laudenum, horizontal drilling, dumping pesticides in the river...AND TAX them to fund treatment and clean up! GENIUS! Tell Ron Paul quick he's close to winning in Iowa and this logic could put him over the top!!

Losing the "convenience" of a medication over the counter wouldn't be so bad if it actually did anything to help stop the problem.  It's along the same stupidity of making me show ID when I buy a can of spray paint at the hardware store, it's all show and does nothing to get to the root of the problem.  I don't have the answer to the problem, but I can see that this isn't it.

Yes, drug-related murders in Mexico are just bumper sticker platitudes. As long as it's illegal, you give the criminal element more power than they would otherwise have. Also, you may want to consult a dictionary regarding the difference between "educate" and "force". You can educate teenagers on the dangers of fornication, but that doesn't mean they won't do it. Similarly, you can teach kids the dangers of drugs, but you can't force them to make a particular decision.

People are already making the decision we don't want, and it's driving a war in Mexico and elsewhere.

Using this kind of logic is about the same as saying lets make extortion legal so we can take the power away from the mob.  While yes, on one hand, criminalizing pot is rather stupid giving that it generally has less long term effects on people than alcohol, just saying we should legalize all drugs so that we can put the drug dealers out of business is absurd. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

It's because of this same kind of reasoning that we get groped and exposed pictures taken of us every time we choose to fly commercially.  We live in a society that is driven by it's fears, and those fears are causing the collective freedoms of the people to be given up one by one.  "It's just a little inconvenience, but it's safer this way" becomes the mantra until we have no rights left, no freedoms, and become prisoners inside our own states of paranoia.  Where, and when, do we draw the line before we loose it all?  I'm sure this all seems like an over reaching of the situation, it's just a small amount, but each step we take places us one step closer. 

So, I guess you don't have a bank account, either?  Just cash your paycheck at WallyWorld and use cash?

It is tough living without an ID.  I just use a passport every chance I get, so I don't have to show DL.  Kind of weirds people out.  You all probably figured I would like doing something like that...

Just started the renewal process for the DL this week.  4 months early, so can be sure to get the background check complete in time.  All 10 fingerprints required!  Taken digitally, and sent in over their "secure" internet connection.  Yeah, right....

[nathanm]

Using this kind of logic is about the same as saying lets make extortion legal so we can take the power away from the mob.  While yes, on one hand, criminalizing pot is rather stupid giving that it generally has less long term effects on people than alcohol, just saying we should legalize all drugs so that we can put the drug dealers out of business is absurd. 

It's nothing like legalizing extortion. Extortion is something that one person does to another. Ingesting drugs is something that one person does to themselves. Clearly it should be illegal to force-feed people drugs without their prior consent or their being declared incompetent to care for themselves by a court of law. We can keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result, but we'll continue to be disappointed and we will continue to be complicit in, although not directly responsible for, the deaths of thousands of innocent people for no particular reason at all.

You might note that even with heroin the Netherlands has had fairly good luck with maintenance programs. Yes, heroin addicts are perfectly capable of holding down a good job when they have the necessary support structure behind them. Sometimes, they even get off the stuff entirely after a while. Whocouldanode?

Seriously, the prohibition often does more damage than the drug and only encourages people to turn to crime as their options become worse and worse as they get processed through the criminal justice system time and time again.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Seriously, the prohibition often does more damage than the drug and only encourages people to turn to crime as their options become worse and worse as they get processed through the criminal justice system time and time again.

Wrong!!  The prohibition ALWAYS does more damage than the drug and creates subsidiary criminal activity!!  We have found that out over and over and over and even over again for the last 100 years.  And we continue our insanity!!

(That's agreeing with you, nathan, just thought it needed a little more emphasis.)

[dbacks fan]

Just started the renewal process for the DL this week.  4 months early, so can be sure to get the background check complete in time.  All 10 fingerprints required!  Taken digitally, and sent in over their "secure" internet connection.  Yeah, right....

When did OK become a socialist state that you are required to supply fingerprints for a DL? That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard of.

And it is a secure connection, I've been involved in setting them up in AZ.

[heironymouspasparagus]

When did OK become a socialist state that you are required to supply fingerprints for a DL? That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard of.

And it is a secure connection, I've been involved in setting them up in AZ.

For the license with the yellow background.  (Yours is probably a blue background.)  It's because I'm special!!

[dbacks fan]

For the license with the yellow background.  (Yours is probably a blue background.)  It's because I'm special!!

In AZ we just buy them from a guy on the corner. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

In AZ we just buy them from a guy on the corner. 

That would be great!  Save me some hassle.

[custosnox]

So, I guess you don't have a bank account, either?  Just cash your paycheck at WallyWorld and use cash?

It is tough living without an ID.  I just use a passport every chance I get, so I don't have to show DL.  Kind of weirds people out.  You all probably figured I would like doing something like that...

Just started the renewal process for the DL this week.  4 months early, so can be sure to get the background check complete in time.  All 10 fingerprints required!  Taken digitally, and sent in over their "secure" internet connection.  Yeah, right....

Actually, I don't have a bank account. And while I do have an ID (finally renewed it after the TNF lunch), there are plenty out there that don't.

It's nothing like legalizing extortion. Extortion is something that one person does to another. Ingesting drugs is something that one person does to themselves. Clearly it should be illegal to force-feed people drugs without their prior consent or their being declared incompetent to care for themselves by a court of law. We can keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result, but we'll continue to be disappointed and we will continue to be complicit in, although not directly responsible for, the deaths of thousands of innocent people for no particular reason at all.

You might note that even with heroin the Netherlands has had fairly good luck with maintenance programs. Yes, heroin addicts are perfectly capable of holding down a good job when they have the necessary support structure behind them. Sometimes, they even get off the stuff entirely after a while. Whocouldanode?

Seriously, the prohibition often does more damage than the drug and only encourages people to turn to crime as their options become worse and worse as they get processed through the criminal justice system time and time again.

The logic you were trying to use was that it should be legal because by it being illegal it gives criminals power.  That is seriously flawed, which is what I was pointing out. You don't make something legal just to keep the people who are involved from being considered outlaws.  And the steps that are taken to get people really and truly hooked on drugs (it was done legally with tobacco, so making it legal won't stop it) are dangerous to those who are on them.  My point is that you need to go for the source.  I don't agree that throwing someone in jail for smoking a joint is going to do any good.  At the same time, you can't act like the need to get the next fix has nothing to do with a number of crimes committed.

[AquaMan]

Yes, drug-related murders in Mexico are just bumper sticker platitudes. As long as it's illegal, you give the criminal element more power than they would otherwise have. Also, you may want to consult a dictionary regarding the difference between "educate" and "force". You can educate teenagers on the dangers of fornication, but that doesn't mean they won't do it. Similarly, you can teach kids the dangers of drugs, but you can't force them to make a particular decision.

People are already making the decision we don't want, and it's driving a war in Mexico and elsewhere.

Stop telling people you are a liberal. You are way too naive or you've fallen in love with the tactics of the right. Shuffling off my remarks to fit your ill thought out constructs is obnoxious to me. I didn't use the word "force" (like you did) because its the wrong word to use. No one is trying to force people to make smart decisions. The government is trying to keep non abusers safe, make it difficult to easily abuse a particular drug, and generally follow past history where those two policies have been successful. That is not force so I used the correct words. You're welcome.

You can educate teenagers on the dangers of fornication while trying to influence good decisionmaking, (and we do) AND it has shown success in keeping VD rates low since WWII where we also educated soldiers of the dangers of fornication. I suppose you think that is wrong too.

Also, are you so naive as to believe that Mexican cartels would disappear and go back to the woods should we suddenly stop prosecuting the war on drugs? And once again, since you ignored this before, where does that logic end?