The Death Penalty

[ZYX]

Every time government puts a person down all our hands participate.

If you are for the death penalty, as ZYX sez: "what a disgusting person you are." Of course, that was a discussion on abortion. Same diff...

You are such an idiot. Killing an innocent unborn child vs killing a person convicted of some horrible crime.

But same diff....

[ZYX]

This is a very difficult issue for me. It completely depends on the case, but I typically lean on the side of "disagreeing."

[Teatownclown]

This is a very difficult issue for me. It completely depends on the case, but I typically lean on the side of "disagreeing."

Well, that's CS.....

[Conan71]

In spite of most people's misidentification of me as an arch conservative and every issue that implies, I'm absolutely against the death penalty.  In every case.

I am a fairly recent convert though.  I believed all my life that the death penalty was a just measure of punishment for murder and specific cases of rape, molestation, and similar crimes where the perpetrator had proven themselves such a devious pox on society, and there was no hope for rehabilitation.

What changed my view was the, at least at the time, only non-fiction offering John Grisham had ever written: "An Innocent Man".  This book details the wrongful conviction of a couple of men in Pontotoc District Court.  It's a gripping read I couldn't put down for days.  I followed up by reading the autobiographical account of the case by one of the men in Grisham's book, Dennis Fritz.  Between those two books, I learned a couple of important lessons:

1) We do send innocent people to death.

2) We waste billions upon billions of dollars every year in the appellate system for people rightfully or wrongfully convicted of capital crimes.  I don't know the current cost, but about four years ago when I had my conversion on the issue, it cost approximately $250K per year to house and provide mandatory legal counsel for a death row inmate.  Multiply that by the 10 to 20 years someone can keep filing appeal after appeal, and that's a lot of money.  General population was about $25 to $30K a year.

I honestly don't know how anyone can read this book and still be 100% for the death penalty.  It's a very, very moving read and it's even about our own Oklahoma justice system.  I do think the DA profiled in the book was eventually voted out or "retired" as a result of the revelations in the book.

[Hoss]

In spite of most people's misidentification of me as an arch conservative and every issue that implies, I'm absolutely against the death penalty.  In every case.

I am a fairly recent convert though.  I believed all my life that the death penalty was a just measure of punishment for murder and specific cases of rape, molestation, and similar crimes where the perpetrator had proven themselves such a devious pox on society, and there was no hope for rehabilitation.

What changed my view was the, at least at the time, only non-fiction offering John Grisham had ever written: "An Innocent Man".  This book details the wrongful conviction of a couple of men in Pontotoc District Court.  It's a gripping read I couldn't put down for days.  I followed up by reading the autobiographical account of the case by one of the men in Grisham's book, Dennis Fritz.  Between those two books, I learned a couple of important lessons:

1) We do send innocent people to death.

2) We waste billions upon billions of dollars every year in the appellate system for people rightfully or wrongfully convicted of capital crimes.  I don't know the current cost, but about four years ago when I had my conversion on the issue, it cost approximately $250K per year to house and provide mandatory legal counsel for a death row inmate.  Multiply that by the 10 to 20 years someone can keep filing appeal after appeal, and that's a lot of money.  General population was about $25 to $30K a year.

I honestly don't know how anyone can read this book and still be 100% for the death penalty.  It's a very, very moving read and it's even about our own Oklahoma justice system.  I do think the DA profiled in the book was eventually voted out or "retired" as a result of the revelations in the book.

I'll have to see if the library has it so I can download on the Fire soon...sounds interesting.  In theory, I'm for it, but will admit to not knowing alot of the specifics that you seem to have derived from reading the book.  I'll check it out.

But for now, I've been reading the following (as a professed road/highway geek):

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Roads-Visionaries-Trailblazers-Superhighways/dp/0618812415

Pretty good read on the fact that the Interstate Highway System, which many people thought Ike championed, is not actually the case.  It gets started in the early 1900s.  I'm not finished with it yet, but it's been a good read sofar.

[Conan71]

I'll have to see if the library has it so I can download on the Fire soon...sounds interesting.  In theory, I'm for it, but will admit to not knowing alot of the specifics that you seem to have derived from reading the book.  I'll check it out.

But for now, I've been reading the following (as a professed road/highway geek):

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Roads-Visionaries-Trailblazers-Superhighways/dp/0618812415

Pretty good read on the fact that the Interstate Highway System, which many people thought Ike championed, is not actually the case.  It gets started in the early 1900s.  I'm not finished with it yet, but it's been a good read sofar.

If your hands aren't allergic to binding glue, you are certainly more than welcome to my copy of "An Innocent Man". 

I still haven't gone to an electronic reader yet, though I love to give those and iPads for gifts.  Too bad you turned out to not be an Apple fanboy, that was on my list for you this year. But...with your continued protestations about how much you hated "The Man", I gave your iPad to a little kid named Ramon in Tijuana through an iPad charity. I'm sure he will hack into your checking account at BOA with it in short order.  Coming to lunch tomorrow?  I'll see if I can find the book and will bring it.

[Hoss]

If your hands aren't allergic to binding glue, you are certainly more than welcome to my copy of "An Innocent Man". 

I still haven't gone to an electronic reader yet, though I love to give those and iPads for gifts.  Too bad you turned out to not be an Apple fanboy, that was on my list for you this year. But...with your continued protestations about how much you hated "The Man", I gave your iPad to a little kid named Ramon in Tijuana through an iPad charity. I'm sure he will hack into your checking account at BOA with it in short order.  Coming to lunch tomorrow?  I'll see if I can find the book and will bring it.

Likely not coming.  The "man" (i.e. our corporation) has deemed it necessary that those of us with a glob of PTO are mandated to use it the week after Christmas.  I have to proactively front-load my work until then as to not get behind after the New Year, so unless something happens that I don't have to frontload tomorrow, I'll have to pass.

I'll let everyone know for sure by midmorning tomorrow, but if you were a betting person, I'd bet on my absence this time.

Just so you know; I never said I hated Apple.  Love his hardware.  Software?  Not so much. 

[Conan71]

Likely not coming.  The "man" (i.e. our corporation) has deemed it necessary that those of us with a glob of PTO are mandated to use it the week after Christmas.  I have to proactively front-load my work until then as to not get behind after the New Year, so unless something happens that I don't have to frontload tomorrow, I'll have to pass.

I'll let everyone know for sure by midmorning tomorrow, but if you were a betting person, I'd bet on my absence this time.

Just so you know; I never said I hated Apple.  Love his hardware.  Software?  Not so much. 

I'd rather front-load than back-load...just so we are straight on the issue

[Hoss]

I'd rather front-load than back-load...just so we are straight on the issue

That's why I'm doin' it now...   

[custosnox]

If any of you remember, I had those guys kick in my front door a few years ago and took a shot at them.  That put me in the unique position of looking a man in the eye and deciding to take his life, even if he managed to duck out of the way.  That decision has stuck with me, and has effected me deeply.  After that, the whole issue has gotten a whole lot murkier, and I think I'm only starting to scratch the surface of my true feelings on it all.

[Conan71]

If any of you remember, I had those guys kick in my front door a few years ago and took a shot at them.  That put me in the unique position of looking a man in the eye and deciding to take his life, even if he managed to duck out of the way.  That decision has stuck with me, and has effected me deeply.  After that, the whole issue has gotten a whole lot murkier, and I think I'm only starting to scratch the surface of my true feelings on it all.

Edited to add to my original post: I reserve the right to protect myself, my family, and anyone who is a guest in my house if someone else intends to use deadly force on myself, my family, or a guest for their nefarious means.  I won't go looking for trouble, but I've come to grips with the idea that if someone came at me with a gun or knife, I'd most certainly have no problem pulling the trigger.

Fortunately I've not had to take a shot as you did.  I hope I never do, but I do appreciate I have the right to do so, if it ever was necessary.

[nathanm]

Edited to add to my original post: I reserve the right to protect myself, my family, and anyone who is a guest in my house if someone else intends to use deadly force on myself, my family, or a guest for their nefarious means.  I won't go looking for trouble, but I've come to grips with the idea that if someone came at me with a gun or knife, I'd most certainly have no problem pulling the trigger.

Fortunately I've not had to take a shot as you did.  I hope I never do, but I do appreciate I have the right to do so, if it ever was necessary.

Absolutely. Although I may be against the death penalty, I think people always have the right to defend themselves from immediately threatened harm with anything up to and including deadly force, if necessary. And I second Conan's recommendation. It's an excellent book.

[guido911]

If any of you remember, I had those guys kick in my front door a few years ago and took a shot at them.  That put me in the unique position of looking a man in the eye and deciding to take his life, even if he managed to duck out of the way.  That decision has stuck with me, and has effected me deeply.  After that, the whole issue has gotten a whole lot murkier, and I think I'm only starting to scratch the surface of my true feelings on it all.

Oh I sure do remember that. I see your situation with those intruders in your grill and the choice you made far different than the death penalty question. Back in the 80s, when I was a soldier, I had the pleasure of live ammo being fired in my general direction. I never considered defending myself or by consequence my country akin to a death penalty question.  You were trying to survive.

[heironymouspasparagus]

If any of you remember, I had those guys kick in my front door a few years ago and took a shot at them.  That put me in the unique position of looking a man in the eye and deciding to take his life, even if he managed to duck out of the way.  That decision has stuck with me, and has effected me deeply.  After that, the whole issue has gotten a whole lot murkier, and I think I'm only starting to scratch the surface of my true feelings on it all.

I have had two of those type incidents over a several year span, both 30 years and more ago, and up until the first of those, there was a question in my mind whether I would be able to shoot at someone to try to stop them from shooting me.  Found out that I could and did (but missed).  The question was removed and the issue has been crystal clear ever since.  I remember at the time having a feeling that I don't know the word for - the closest may be disappointment, but not in the normal sense.  The feeling was that since I had missed, there was the possibility this person could and most likely would repeat the actions with someone not so willing or able to react in such a fashion as to stop them, and thereby end up dead because of my missed shots.  (And no, they weren't bar fights or any other type venue one might go into expecting the possibility of adverse actions - more of a quiet pastoral scene.)

[custosnox]

It has put a whole new perspective on the idea of taking another man's life, however, regardless of the circumstance.  It bothers me to have had to made that choice, and I don't know if I could choose to do so without being in a situation such as that.  And if I can not choose to do so, how can I expect another to do so for me?