The Death Penalty

[Gaspar]

It has put a whole new perspective on the idea of taking another man's life, however, regardless of the circumstance.  It bothers me to have had to made that choice, and I don't know if I could choose to do so without being in a situation such as that.  And if I can not choose to do so, how can I expect another to do so for me? 

You may simply want to change the way you view self defense. 

The idea behind using a gun for self-defense is not to kill your attacker, it is to STOP your attacker.  Understanding that, there are several things you can do to be completely effective in protecting yourself and family without putting yourself in a position to take a life.

A great way to do this is to change your firearm choice. My personal recommendation would be to go with a .410 shotgun and #4-6 birdshot.  If you get a sawed off home protection style, or my personal favorite THE JUDGE, You are going to stop your attacker, in fact if they aren't completely incapacitated by the 60+ led pellets that penetrate about 1"-2" under the skin, they will pass out from the pain!  A non-lethal shot from a conventional hand-gun under 9mm can in many cases result in the attacker running away.  If you are a good shot, you will kill them.  A blast from the judge you will not walk away from, there is a lesser chance that it will be lethal, and you can't miss, even if you are blind! 

I never want to kill anyone, but I go for the groin, because I would like for them to think about their life choices every time they pee.

At $450 The Judge is an inexpensive and effective option.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The idea behind using a gun for self-defense is not to kill your attacker, it is to STOP your attacker.  Understanding that, there are several things you can do to be completely effective in protecting yourself and family without putting yourself in a position to take a life.

A great way to do this is to change your firearm choice. My personal recommendation would be to go with a .410 shotgun and #4-6 birdshot.  If you get a sawed off home protection style, or my personal favorite THE JUDGE, You are going to stop your attacker, in fact if they aren't completely incapacitated by the 60+ led pellets that penetrate about 1"-2" under the skin, they will pass out from the pain!  A non-lethal shot from a conventional hand-gun under 9mm can in many cases result in the attacker running away.  If you are a good shot, you will kill them.  A blast from the judge you will not walk away from, there is a lesser chance that it will be lethal, and you can't miss, even if you are blind! 

I never want to kill anyone, but I go for the groin, because I would like for them to think about their life choices every time they pee.

We are going down a path here that requires much more information.  Early on, the Judge was specifically talked up as an anti-carjacking tool.  Very effective, especially if you have a couple of .45 Long Colt in the cylinder after the .410 ga.  Superb choice for close in, and it's ALL close in.  If not, then you probably have a chance to run away and should use it.

I think you may want to talk to some more cops about that.  A very large percentage of people who are shot, even with bird shot, report they didn't even realize they were hit until later.  And the vast majority of people getting into a deadly situation don't react well, if at all.  It certainly is not as simple as pulling out your gun and shooting a guy in the crotch.

There will be more video, but will start with this one.  The agenda here is anti-gun, and in particular, anti-concealed carry.  And obviously I don't agree with the point of view - actually couldn't be further apart.  But what the cops are showing is very real and the way people react is typical.  If thinking about concealed carry, there is a major investment in time and effort required.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&feature=related

[Conan71]

You may simply want to change the way you view self defense.  

The idea behind using a gun for self-defense is not to kill your attacker, it is to STOP your attacker.  Understanding that, there are several things you can do to be completely effective in protecting yourself and family without putting yourself in a position to take a life.

A great way to do this is to change your firearm choice. My personal recommendation would be to go with a .410 shotgun and #4-6 birdshot.  If you get a sawed off home protection style, or my personal favorite THE JUDGE, You are going to stop your attacker, in fact if they aren't completely incapacitated by the 60+ led pellets that penetrate about 1"-2" under the skin, they will pass out from the pain!  A non-lethal shot from a conventional hand-gun under 9mm can in many cases result in the attacker running away.  If you are a good shot, you will kill them.  A blast from the judge you will not walk away from, there is a lesser chance that it will be lethal, and you can't miss, even if you are blind!  

I never want to kill anyone, but I go for the groin, because I would like for them to think about their life choices every time they pee.

At $450 The Judge is an inexpensive and effective option.

Just the "CHA-CHACK!" from a .20 or .12 gauge shot gun would be enough to get most intruders to think twice and bail out.  One other benefit of a shotgun (or Judge) for home defense is the chance of pellets penetrating sheet rock are pretty slim if you are worried about hitting an unintended target on the other side of a wall.

You and I do disagree though on one point.  I've always been taught never to aim a firearm at another person unless I intend to shoot them.  Do not shoot another person unless I intend to kill them.

[Gaspar]

Just the "CHA-CHACK!" from a .20 or .12 gauge shot gun would be enough to get most intruders to think twice and bail out.  One other benefit of a shotgun (or Judge) for home defense is the chance of pellets penetrating sheet rock are pretty slim if you are worried about hitting an unintended target on the other side of a wall.

You and I do disagree though on one point.  I've always been taught never to aim a firearm at another person unless I intend to shoot them.  Do not shoot another person unless I intend to kill them.

You need to think about that through.  The correct interpretation is "never point a gun at another person unless you are prepared to kill them."

The operative word is "prepared."   It indicates a mental state where you have concluded that your actions to stop an attacker may result in death.  This is what allows you to engage in the use of potentially lethal force.

There are two reasons I say this:

1. In a court of law (where you will likely end up if you shoot someone) you never want to display "intent."  If the prosecution can prove through your words or actions that you intended to kill your attacker than you will likely be found guilty of manslaughter.  

2. When questioned, you always must reply "I was trying to stop him."  If through that effort, the attacker dies, you are not held responsible for his death.  

The best way to do this is to truly believe that the use of lethal force's primary purpose is to stop an attack, protect your life, or protect the life of another.  If this means that you need to re-evaluate your choice in home protection tools, then so be it, but it is very important that if you intend to protect yourself and your family, that you internalize the mission of STOPING AN ATTACK, not KILLING.

This will help you to do what is necessary if the time comes to defend yourself without hesitation that could cost you your life or a misunderstanding of purpose that could cause you your freedom.

[Conan71]

You need to think about that through.  The correct interpretation is "never point a gun at another person unless you are prepared to kill them."

The operative word is "prepared."   It indicates a mental state where you have concluded that your actions to stop an attacker may result in death.  This is what allows you to engage in the use of potentially lethal force.

There are two reasons I say this:

1. In a court of law (where you will likely end up if you shoot someone) you never want to display "intent."  If the prosecution can prove through your words or actions that you intended to kill your attacker than you will likely be found guilty of manslaughter.  

2. When questioned, you always must reply "I was trying to stop him."  If through that effort, the attacker dies, you are not held responsible for his death.  

The best way to do this is to truly believe that the use of lethal force's primary purpose is to stop an attack, protect your life, or protect the life of another.  If this means that you need to re-evaluate your choice in home protection tools, then so be it, but it is very important that if you intend to protect yourself and your family, that you internalize the mission of STOPING AN ATTACK, not KILLING.

This will help you to do what is necessary if the time comes to defend yourself without hesitation that could cost you your life or a misunderstanding of purpose that could cause you your freedom.

As per issue number 1 and 2, don't say a word to the cops until your attorney arrives. 

I suspect Jerome Ersland started running his mouth to the cops thinking the law would fall on his side.  Turned out not to be the case.

[Gaspar]

As per issue number 1 and 2, don't say a word to the cops until your attorney arrives. 

I suspect Jerome Ersland started running his mouth to the cops thinking the law would fall on his side.  Turned out not to be the case.

Yeah, that and the video tape!

[custosnox]

You may simply want to change the way you view self defense. 

The idea behind using a gun for self-defense is not to kill your attacker, it is to STOP your attacker.  Understanding that, there are several things you can do to be completely effective in protecting yourself and family without putting yourself in a position to take a life.

A great way to do this is to change your firearm choice. My personal recommendation would be to go with a .410 shotgun and #4-6 birdshot.  If you get a sawed off home protection style, or my personal favorite THE JUDGE, You are going to stop your attacker, in fact if they aren't completely incapacitated by the 60+ led pellets that penetrate about 1"-2" under the skin, they will pass out from the pain!  A non-lethal shot from a conventional hand-gun under 9mm can in many cases result in the attacker running away.  If you are a good shot, you will kill them.  A blast from the judge you will not walk away from, there is a lesser chance that it will be lethal, and you can't miss, even if you are blind! 

I never want to kill anyone, but I go for the groin, because I would like for them to think about their life choices every time they pee.

At $450 The Judge is an inexpensive and effective option.

Of course, if you don't have $450 but already have a Desert Eagle 9mm, then you use the DE.  And my intent was to stop them.  I just happen to know that the best way to stop someone is to stop all brain activity, which a severe case of lead poisoning can do if injected directly through the brain.  But, I do think I need to retrain myself, I went for a head shot (and only missed due to hesitation), I probably need to get my reaction to go for body shots.

We are going down a path here that requires much more information.  Early on, the Judge was specifically talked up as an anti-carjacking tool.  Very effective, especially if you have a couple of .45 Long Colt in the cylinder after the .410 ga.  Superb choice for close in, and it's ALL close in.  If not, then you probably have a chance to run away and should use it.

I think you may want to talk to some more cops about that.  A very large percentage of people who are shot, even with bird shot, report they didn't even realize they were hit until later.  And the vast majority of people getting into a deadly situation don't react well, if at all.  It certainly is not as simple as pulling out your gun and shooting a guy in the crotch.

There will be more video, but will start with this one.  The agenda here is anti-gun, and in particular, anti-concealed carry.  And obviously I don't agree with the point of view - actually couldn't be further apart.  But what the cops are showing is very real and the way people react is typical.  If thinking about concealed carry, there is a major investment in time and effort required.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&feature=related

It seems I am not the typical person in this situation.  That is one thing that puzzles me to this day about it, I was completely calm throughout.  I didn't even have the shakes later, so I'm taking that to mean I never even hit the adrenaline.  Everything that happened I worked through my mind as I did it, right down to pulling the trigger.  Of course that might be why it has effected me so deeply, I kind of had that internal dialog happening in that split second as they came through the door of "you need to shoot" "If I shoot I'll be taking their life" looked into the guys eyes "you still need to shoot, that is the only option" then I remember actually thinking the words "pull the trigger" as I squeezed the trigger.  I think it is that personal accountability that comes to mind afterwards.  I wonder how much the verdict of a death sentence would drop if those who made the judgment had to look at the person and physically take action to make it happen, right then and there.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It seems I am not the typical person in this situation.  That is one thing that puzzles me to this day about it, I was completely calm throughout.  I didn't even have the shakes later, so I'm taking that to mean I never even hit the adrenaline.  Everything that happened I worked through my mind as I did it, right down to pulling the trigger.  Of course that might be why it has effected me so deeply, I kind of had that internal dialog happening in that split second as they came through the door of "you need to shoot" "If I shoot I'll be taking their life" looked into the guys eyes "you still need to shoot, that is the only option" then I remember actually thinking the words "pull the trigger" as I squeezed the trigger.  I think it is that personal accountability that comes to mind afterwards.  I wonder how much the verdict of a death sentence would drop if those who made the judgment had to look at the person and physically take action to make it happen, right then and there.

9mm isn't enough to be a good self defense gun.  And a .380 is just playing James Bond (sorry to those with .380s if I hurt your feelings - but it's true).

First time, I had the dialog in my head.  Second time was all instinct and reaction.  I had intentionally tried to train and practice when out in the field on hunting trips, etc.  There are places that provide that kind of training, and it can be very helpful.  The concealed carry classes are not even a good introduction to this topic.  Just what is required by law.  

Too many "video game" people out there (and that includes my generation raised on Roy Rogers and Gene Autry) treat it like a "game".  It is NOT.

And any creditable instructor will tell you to forget the "shoot their weapon out of their hands" tricks, and just try to aim for the biggest target you see - the torso.  And never, ever, ever pull a gun on someone - or point it at them - that you don't intend to kill.  Because even if the intent IS stopping, the end result may well end up in kill.  If you cannot bring yourself to do that, then just forget the gun.

2.5 million times a year in this country a person uses a firearm to defend themselves from severe bodily injury or death (FBI stats).  Not even a tiny fraction of that are actually killed every year, so most encounters do not involve a fatality.  Your odds of not killing someone in an encounter are good, and you may just save your own life.  Just be aware that it can happen and it could be your life snuffed out if not properly prepared.  Last year, man and woman were killed in New Mexico by escaped criminals from Arizona (since Gov. Brewer was more concerned with the aliens than keeping violent criminals detained.)  The woman was the sister of a man I work with.  Horrible situation.  The man murdered had a concealed carry permit - I do not know if he had it on him at the time - but even with a gun, things can still go badly.  If violence is the intent of the criminal, carrying still gives a better opportunity to preserve your life.

[custosnox]

9mm isn't enough to be a good self defense gun.  And a .380 is just playing James Bond (sorry to those with .380s if I hurt your feelings - but it's true).

First time, I had the dialog in my head.  Second time was all instinct and reaction.  I had intentionally tried to train and practice when out in the field on hunting trips, etc.  There are places that provide that kind of training, and it can be very helpful.  The concealed carry classes are not even a good introduction to this topic.  Just what is required by law.  

Too many "video game" people out there (and that includes my generation raised on Roy Rogers and Gene Autry) treat it like a "game".  It is NOT.

And any creditable instructor will tell you to forget the "shoot their weapon out of their hands" tricks, and just try to aim for the biggest target you see - the torso.  And never, ever, ever pull a gun on someone - or point it at them - that you don't intend to kill.  Because even if the intent IS stopping, the end result may well end up in kill.  If you cannot bring yourself to do that, then just forget the gun.

2.5 million times a year in this country a person uses a firearm to defend themselves from severe bodily injury or death (FBI stats).  Not even a tiny fraction of that are actually killed every year, so most encounters do not involve a fatality.  Your odds of not killing someone in an encounter are good, and you may just save your own life.  Just be aware that it can happen and it could be your life snuffed out if not properly prepared.  Last year, man and woman were killed in New Mexico by escaped criminals from Arizona (since Gov. Brewer was more concerned with the aliens than keeping violent criminals detained.)  The woman was the sister of a man I work with.  Horrible situation.  The man murdered had a concealed carry permit - I do not know if he had it on him at the time - but even with a gun, things can still go badly.  If violence is the intent of the criminal, carrying still gives a better opportunity to preserve your life.

I disagree with the assessment of the 9mm.  I have seen the ballistics, and with self defense ammo, it is sufficient to stop an intruder/attacker, especially when you hit center mass.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I disagree with the assessment of the 9mm.  I have seen the ballistics, and with self defense ammo, it is sufficient to stop an intruder/attacker, especially when you hit center mass.

Why do I shoot a .45??  Because they don't make a .46!

Lots of law enforcement and military got real enamored by 9mm about 20 years ago - bullet dujour - and most are moving away as quick as they can now.  Lots of debate on this one.  I could be comfortable with a 9mm, but just like the .45 more.  Even though the .40 has much better ballistics.  It is all very personal when you get to this level.

[custosnox]

Why do I shoot a .45??  Because they don't make a .46!

Lots of law enforcement and military got real enamored by 9mm about 20 years ago - bullet dujour - and most are moving away as quick as they can now.  Lots of debate on this one.  I could be comfortable with a 9mm, but just like the .45 more.  Even though the .40 has much better ballistics.  It is all very personal when you get to this level.

I could go with a .40 or a .45, but to be honest, I can afford (somewhat) to get more ammo for the 9mm, and the more time you can spend at the range the better off you are.  Personally, if I could afford it, I would go with a DE .50 or something like that, but that is just because you know it's going to do some damage.  Too bad you can't carry that (as if you could really conceal it).

[Ed W]

Under stress, the body dumps adrenaline into the bloodstream.  It has a powerful effect, reducing peripheral vision, boosting muscular strength at the expense of fine motor skills, and dampening pain response.  This happens to both the homeowner and the guy coming through his door.  Toss in some additional drugs or alcohol, and the pain response is further reduced.  It's no wonder that a person can be shot and not really feel it.  Some gunshot victims say that it feels almost like a burn rather than an impact.

In the infamous Miami shootout, FBI agents armed with 9mm handguns were at a severe disadvantage to 2 criminals armed with .223 rifles.  Likewise, in the LA shootout, the LAPD handguns (9mm and .40 S&W, if I recall right) were outgunned by two criminals in improvised body armor and armed with rifles firing 7.62x39 cartridges.  Both incidents had police calling for better weapons.  The FBI settled on the 10mm for a time, while the LAPD looked at the 45ACP.  They probably wouldn't penetrate even improvised armor, but they'll knock people down.

What does all this mean for that frightened homeowner?  The unmistakeable clack-clack of a pump action shotgun should deter any criminal in his right mind.  But what of a criminal high on crank or meth?  

[Hoss]

I disagree with the assessment of the 9mm.  I have seen the ballistics, and with self defense ammo, it is sufficient to stop an intruder/attacker, especially when you hit center mass.

I disagree with the .380 assessment.  I use two kinds of ammo: PP and range.  I have two clips right now of PP.  The .380 works just fine as a defense weapon and is good for conceal/carry purposes.  All the ballistics and results I've seen show a pretty nasty wound if the PP is used and has a decent range.  Most self-defense gunshots are shot between 6 and 15 feet, some even closer.  The .380 is pretty close to the 9 in size also.

[Conan71]

9mm isn't enough to be a good self defense gun.  And a .380 is just playing James Bond (sorry to those with .380s if I hurt your feelings - but it's true).

First time, I had the dialog in my head.  Second time was all instinct and reaction.  I had intentionally tried to train and practice when out in the field on hunting trips, etc.  There are places that provide that kind of training, and it can be very helpful.  The concealed carry classes are not even a good introduction to this topic.  Just what is required by law.  

Too many "video game" people out there (and that includes my generation raised on Roy Rogers and Gene Autry) treat it like a "game".  It is NOT.

And any creditable instructor will tell you to forget the "shoot their weapon out of their hands" tricks, and just try to aim for the biggest target you see - the torso.  And never, ever, ever pull a gun on someone - or point it at them - that you don't intend to kill.  Because even if the intent IS stopping, the end result may well end up in kill.  If you cannot bring yourself to do that, then just forget the gun.

2.5 million times a year in this country a person uses a firearm to defend themselves from severe bodily injury or death (FBI stats).  Not even a tiny fraction of that are actually killed every year, so most encounters do not involve a fatality.  Your odds of not killing someone in an encounter are good, and you may just save your own life.  Just be aware that it can happen and it could be your life snuffed out if not properly prepared.  Last year, man and woman were killed in New Mexico by escaped criminals from Arizona (since Gov. Brewer was more concerned with the aliens than keeping violent criminals detained.)  The woman was the sister of a man I work with.  Horrible situation.  The man murdered had a concealed carry permit - I do not know if he had it on him at the time - but even with a gun, things can still go badly.  If violence is the intent of the criminal, carrying still gives a better opportunity to preserve your life.

Cemeteries are littered with bodies with 9mm and .380 wounds.  Using the correct round or simply getting a great shot with a wad cutter will still result in a permanent case of extreme sleepiness. 

There are some SDA instructors who actually do address the best weapons and rounds for self-defense.  My instructor even went so far as to show the class quite a few defense tactics without a firearm. 

I can't say enough good about Paul Abel at Shoot-N-Iron down in Shawnee.  He was a long-time LEO and they do LEO tactical training there.  They also have advanced defense courses for us non LEO types.

http://www.shoot-n-iron.com/SIcourse.asp

[Gaspar]

I disagree with the assessment of the 9mm.  I have seen the ballistics, and with self defense ammo, it is sufficient to stop an intruder/attacker, especially when you hit center mass.

I have seen the outcome of hundreds of single and multiple shots with 9mm.  It's an extremely effective load.  .45 has massive punch, but not as much penetration and just about every torso, limb or head shot with a 9mm I treated as a paramedic resulted in complete incapacitation and/or death.

I also disagree with his assessment of .380.  While they only produce an average of 9in penetration in ballistic jell, they are typically very effective, especially with full copper hollow points.  They are also the best CC weapon because of their size and accuracy (more accurate out of a 3in barrel than 9mm or 45).

If you goal is indeed to kill someone as Hereon states above, than he is "good to go" with his "dirty harry" weapon, I just don't want to be his next door neighbor, or living across the street.  Additionally, if the scenario ever plays out where he does have to use that weapon to defend himself, I hope no ambitious attorney reads his post.