Broken Arrow Casino -

[DolfanBob]

I spent a few day's installing the c-band satellite dishes at the casino just south of Ponca City back in the day and was I ever shocked at how they build. The parking lot was just leveled dirt and then asphalt laid on top of it. No surveyors to level it off for proper drainage. They had a hand picked Indian inspector who at the time I was there was out back of the property with members of the tribe hunting. They were using flimsy aluminum frame pieces for the walls and roof. They wanted televisions hung on the walls and when we went to do that the sheet rock and the aluminum frames started to collapse and fall forward. The most secure structure in the whole building was the walk in safe that they were welding together in the middle of the complex indoor. I thought we all were going to get sick from breathing that in the whole time that I was working there.
If a tornado was to head straight for that building. I would rather be in my car.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Oh, you mean the jobs that are reserved for those of a specific bloodline, and only doled out to others as a last resort?

Specifically Indians.  Yeah, those jobs.  On the very extremely rare times I have been in the east casino I have seen a lot of blondes, too.  But that is kind of a macabre joke that some in the family make about how many blue eyed blondes are carrying Cherokee cards.  (No, I don't have a card, but was only blonde as a very young kid - went to brown very early.  Then grey.)


Maybe they feel that a long history of genocide and extermination and decades of discrimination towards them justifies a little preferential treatment?

[AquaMan]

Specifically Indians.  Yeah, those jobs.  On the very extremely rare times I have been in the east casino I have seen a lot of blondes, too.  But that is kind of a macabre joke that some in the family make about how many blue eyed blondes are carrying Cherokee cards.  (No, I don't have a card, but was only blonde as a very young kid - went to brown very early.  Then grey.)


Maybe they feel that a long history of genocide and extermination and decades of discrimination towards them justifies a little preferential treatment?

A little? In a word, no. What they feel is anger at past racism that they themselves practiced. As a descendant of whiskey loving Creeks (great grandmother 100%), Irish, Welsh and French my family suffered attempted genocide by the American Govt, discrimination by the English govt. and extermination by the Germans. Yet I hold no ill will nor expect any preferential treatment for their past sins. Past wrongs don't justify current wrongs.

[heironymouspasparagus]

A little? In a word, no. What they feel is anger at past racism that they themselves practiced. As a descendant of whiskey loving Creeks (great grandmother 100%), Irish, Welsh and French my family suffered attempted genocide by the American Govt, discrimination by the English govt. and extermination by the Germans. Yet I hold no ill will nor expect any preferential treatment for their past sins. Past wrongs don't justify current wrongs.

It's human nature.  You feeling no ill will is not really a typical response, as can be seen by pretty much the actions of the entire human race, planetwide.


Interesting thing I found in late summer - went to the battlefield at the Little Big Horn.  Park ranger who gave the talk about the battle was Crow Indian.  Sioux were the main contingent fighting against the US Cavalry, while the Crow were guides and helped the Cavalry.  Sioux were trying to go north, crossing north through the Crow lands (traditional enemies).  This ranger gave a good talk, but you could tell he was very biased against the Sioux, even today, what...130 years after the fact? 

These histories go far to explain why the Irish hate the English, the Palestinians hate the Israelis, and the entire Mid-East hates the US.  It's all that has transpired before that biases the present.  You and I have little to do with the the current realities of the mid-east beyond the fact that we still 'support' the US efforts in the region - implicitly endorsing those past efforts.  So even though my ancestry is Cherokee and Irish, the typical Iranian fundamentalist is gonna hate me.  Just the way it is.

And the Cherokees here are gonna give the jobs to tribe members first.  Right, wrong, or indifferent - just the way it is.  (Remember how there were some local companies who fired people because they had Clinton bumper stickers on their cars back in the '90s?  Same thing.)

[AquaMan]

It's human nature.  You feeling no ill will is not really a typical response, as can be seen by pretty much the actions of the entire human race, planetwide.


Interesting thing I found in late summer - went to the battlefield at the Little Big Horn.  Park ranger who gave the talk about the battle was Crow Indian.  Sioux were the main contingent fighting against the US Cavalry, while the Crow were guides and helped the Cavalry.  Sioux were trying to go north, crossing north through the Crow lands (traditional enemies).  This ranger gave a good talk, but you could tell he was very biased against the Sioux, even today, what...130 years after the fact? 

These histories go far to explain why the Irish hate the English, the Palestinians hate the Israelis, and the entire Mid-East hates the US.  It's all that has transpired before that biases the present.  You and I have little to do with the the current realities of the mid-east beyond the fact that we still 'support' the US efforts in the region - implicitly endorsing those past efforts.  So even though my ancestry is Cherokee and Irish, the typical Iranian fundamentalist is gonna hate me.  Just the way it is.

And the Cherokees here are gonna give the jobs to tribe members first.  Right, wrong, or indifferent - just the way it is.  (Remember how there were some local companies who fired people because they had Clinton bumper stickers on their cars back in the '90s?  Same thing.)

Racism may be human nature. Human nature is one thing. Codifying human nature is another. Surely you wouldn't be in favor of American Irish discriminating against someone of English heritage. I am proud of all of my ancestry but I enjoy the histories of the Welsh and Irish most. The fact that the Irish easily mixed with the American Indian is not too surprising to me. Truth is, most races have blended to the extent that it is ludicrous to see some guy with less Indian heritage than I have discriminating against me because my Great Grandmother didn't sign the white man's Indian rolls. We seem to be devolving if that is accepted as "payback".

They use this as a weapon and it is damaging to them in many ways. One of them is their dependence upon birthright mineral rights that are passed on to each generation giving them a welfare mentality. Doesn't work well for white trust fund babies either. Another is the spiritual degradation that gambling infects them with.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Racism may be human nature. Human nature is one thing. Codifying human nature is another. Surely you wouldn't be in favor of American Irish discriminating against someone of English heritage. I am proud of all of my ancestry but I enjoy the histories of the Welsh and Irish most. The fact that the Irish easily mixed with the American Indian is not too surprising to me. Truth is, most races have blended to the extent that it is ludicrous to see some guy with less Indian heritage than I have discriminating against me because my Great Grandmother didn't sign the white man's Indian rolls. We seem to be devolving if that is accepted as "payback".

They use this as a weapon and it is damaging to them in many ways. One of them is their dependence upon birthright mineral rights that are passed on to each generation giving them a welfare mentality. Doesn't work well for white trust fund babies either. Another is the spiritual degradation that gambling infects them with.

I'm not in favor of discrimination of any kind - have been affected by it too much.  I am not on the rolls either (kids are) and it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

One good side affect of all the DNA capabilities we have today are that it shows with NO doubt that every single person on this planet is related.  But you know that internecine warfare is always the most vicious...

Internecine - of or relating to struggle within a nation, organization, or group (Family fighting).

[AquaMan]

You know, I hadn't thought about how easy it would be to use DNA to show Indian heritage. I wonder if the tribes recognize that? Did that play any role in the outcome of the recent decision by the courts to recognize the children of Creek slaves as tribe members? Seems arbitrary to determine who is Indian by what papers were signed 150 years ago rather than real science.

Anyway, BA is screwed and Owasso is yet one more target rich environment.

[swake]

You know, I hadn't thought about how easy it would be to use DNA to show Indian heritage. I wonder if the tribes recognize that? Did that play any role in the outcome of the recent decision by the courts to recognize the children of Creek slaves as tribe members? Seems arbitrary to determine who is Indian by what papers were signed 150 years ago rather than real science.

Anyway, BA is screwed and Owasso is yet one more target rich environment.

The lists weren't formed 150 years ago, it was 105. Genetics have nothing to do with the lists, you (or your relative) are either on the list or not. The lists are called the Dawes rolls and they were not completed by the tribes, it was forced on the tribes by the federal government in 1907. The Dawes rolls (and the related allotment of land) was a final push to destroy the five "civilized" tribes and grab the last of the land that had been given to them.

This tribal town may or may not get this casino done. It's not as bad as it's being made out to be but this certainly is a questionable deal. The Creek Nation is going to fight this pretty hard I would think.

Calling Owasso the next target for a casino from this tribal town is ridiculous, if for no other reason than it's impossible because Owasso is in the Cherokee Nation, not the Creek Nation.

[custosnox]

The lists weren't formed 150 years ago, it was 105. Genetics have nothing to do with the lists, you (or your relative) are either on the list or not. The lists are called the Dawes rolls and they were not completed by the tribes, it was forced on the tribes by the federal government in 1907. The Dawes rolls (and the related allotment of land) was a final push to destroy the five "civilized" tribes and grab the last of the land that had been given to them.

This tribal town may or may not get this casino done. It's not as bad as it's being made out to be but this certainly is a questionable deal. The Creek Nation is going to fight this pretty hard I would think.

Calling Owasso the next target for a casino from this tribal town is ridiculous, if for no other reason than it's impossible because Owasso is in the Cherokee Nation, not the Creek Nation.

But the Dawes rolls are not the end all and be all of proving your heritage, and are far from accurate when it comes to doing the job themselves. 

Hate to say this, but what happened to the natives here is what happens every time one group wants the land another group has throughout history, they fight for it, and do whatever they can do to get it.  But you don't see the Normans giving special concessions to the Saxons, the Spanish giving concessions to the Incas, or any number of cultures in the past that conquered another group giving concessions decades, or even centuries, later.  It is simply how things have progressed.  Hell, in my own family tree I have one of my ancestors that married the princess of a tribe, who is also an ancestor, so that he could gain the land that the tribe owned.  When that failed, he killed them all. Does that mean I owe myself reparations?  All the while of natives grabbing for whatever we will give them because their ancestors were wronged in some way or another, they have no problem taking advantages of all the good things that Europeans being here has brought about.  And for the record, I can do the research and get my card, but I refuse to on the grounds that nothing is owed me because someone screwed over someone else a long time ago.  It also gets me how few actual full blooded natives there are.  They seem to forget that they have the ancestry of the evil whites.

[AquaMan]

I'm with you Custo. It gets weirder and weirder each new generation of reparations. The Creeks Cherokees having to acknowledge their black slaves so that their descendants could also get a share of the bounty meant that they were discriminated by those who were discriminated against. Double dipping racial discrimination. Cool. Last night I saw the heartbreaking story of a young couple who adopted a native American child but had to return the child after three years to the mother while the father was ...unavailable...because the tribe doesn't allow inter-racial non tribal adoptions. Yeah, that makes sense.

Swake, hardly anyone indigenous to Oklahoma needs a history lesson about the Dawes rolls. Argue the details if you like. Argue their motives if you like. I don't think you'll ever be able to completely re-assemble the mindset at the time. Some of the policies were avaricious, some were meant to be protective. Suffice it to say that many thought it was progressive at the time to try to assimilate the tribes into the greater mass of immigrants both to save their souls and to elevate their literacy. Some of their own tribal leaders saw the future and their place in it and agreed. There were few choices to be made, they had to be made quickly and few enlightened, well educated Jenks suburbans to guide them.  The fact that the Dawes rolls are the only entrance into tribal nation membership is simply stupid and arbitrary. Until the R's change our laws, even our nation doesn't do that. You born in America, you're a citizen.

BTW, my great grandmother didn't sign the Dawes rolls so they were not all forced any more than the census forces you to reply.

Note: the Cherokees also run casinos and they own land in Owasso. That makes them a target.

[rdj]

I believe you are referring to the "Cherokee Freedman" when you mention the Creek's acknowledging slave descendants. 

Carry on.

[Conan71]

Racism may be human nature. Human nature is one thing. Codifying human nature is another. Surely you wouldn't be in favor of American Irish discriminating against someone of English heritage. I am proud of all of my ancestry but I enjoy the histories of the Welsh and Irish most. The fact that the Irish easily mixed with the American Indian is not too surprising to me. Truth is, most races have blended to the extent that it is ludicrous to see some guy with less Indian heritage than I have discriminating against me because my Great Grandmother didn't sign the white man's Indian rolls. We seem to be devolving if that is accepted as "payback".

They use this as a weapon and it is damaging to them in many ways. One of them is their dependence upon birthright mineral rights that are passed on to each generation giving them a welfare mentality. Doesn't work well for white trust fund babies either. Another is the spiritual degradation that gambling infects them with.

If a white person does it, it's called racism.

If a Native American does it, it's called sovereignty.

[AquaMan]

I believe you are referring to the "Cherokee Freedman" when you mention the Creek's acknowledging slave descendants. 

Carry on.

Thank you. I also sometimes transpose letters. Part of that alzenheemers stuff.

[dbacks fan]

If a white person does it, it's called racism.

If a Native American does it, it's called sovereignty.

And if an African American does it, they claim it's their rights.

[Conan71]

And if an African American does it, they claim it's their rights.

You can't say that.  That's a racial slur!