CBS calls NH for Mittens

[nathanm]

This is rather impressive.

It is impressive that someone would videotape themselves committing election fraud. Also impressive that you're concerned about a lag of less than two weeks in clearing people off the voting rolls. It truly shows that you have absolutely no sense of perspective.

[Gaspar]

It is impressive that someone would videotape themselves committing election fraud. Also impressive that you're concerned about a lag of less than two weeks in clearing people off the voting rolls. It truly shows that you have absolutely no sense of perspective.

First: They never accepted the ballots.
Second: If some form, any form, of ID were required, this would not be an issue.

The fact that you don't see it as a problem is what raises concerns.

[nathanm]

The fact that you don't see it as a problem is what raises concerns.

It is a problem that a jackass known for his dishonesty and his criminal record thinks it's OK to attempt to commit election fraud. The onus is on you to prove that this happens frequently enough to be something I should actually care about.

Moreover, I suspect that if we spent the amount of money necessary to strike people from the rolls within two weeks of their death you would rail against the "waste" of government funds. Your argument is completely disingenuous. You think it's impossible to fake an ID? If so, you might want to get out more.

[Townsend]

Starting to look Like ol' Gaspar needs to ignore even more posters 'splodin' reality into his face.

[Gaspar]

It is a problem that a jackass known for his dishonesty and his criminal record thinks it's OK to attempt to commit election fraud. The onus is on you to prove that this happens frequently enough to be something I should actually care about.

Moreover, I suspect that if we spent the amount of money necessary to strike people from the rolls within two weeks of their death you would rail against the "waste" of government funds. Your argument is completely disingenuous. You think it's impossible to fake an ID? If so, you might want to get out more.

No, the problem is that there are places known and quite well documented for voter fraud.  When activist groups can get an obit and drive from polling place to polling place voting on behalf of hundreds of dead people, it's a problem.  Every election we find that thousands of dead people have cast a ballot.  

When this happens you and i are disenfranchised because our votes carry less weight.

Sure, you can fake an ID and go vote on behalf of a person, but that requires a significant amount of effort, and to do it for hundreds of people would be quite a criminal enterprise.  Like any crime, we will never be able to eliminate voter fraud, but that's not a reason not to try and mitigate it.  Especially when the simple act of asking for identification is so easy, and effective.

As technology advances, soon this may no longer be an issue.  There will be other simple ways of positively identifying voters without any mildly obtrusive requests.  I am also positive that no matter how we ensure the security of our elective process there will always be those who fight it.  The reasons for their motivation are obvious.

Note: I would never ignore you Nate.  We strongly disagree on almost everything, but you are very capable of debate.  I learn things from you, even though sometime I don't want to.  Perhaps it's because you are not just a "drive-by" poster.

[Townsend]

No, the problem is that there are places known and quite well documented for voter fraud.  When activist groups can get an obit and drive from polling place to polling place voting on behalf of hundreds of dead people, it's a problem.  

Can that be cited by a reputable source?

Survey says...Not gonna happen.

[nathanm]

As technology advances, soon this may no longer be an issue.  There will be other simple ways of positively identifying voters without any mildly obtrusive requests.  I am also positive that no matter how we ensure the security of our elective process there will always be those who fight it.  The reasons for their motivation are obvious.

My motivation is one you should understand: Freedom. My right to vote should not be contingent on convincing some government bureaucrat to issue a photo ID. A person who has been registered in the same place since 1950 should not have their right to vote be contingent on coming up with a nonexistent birth certificate (oh, home births) to satisfy an HB1804-like law and get an ID. If you want to require people provide the registrar with a secret word used to verify their identity or something, I'd be a lot more OK with that.

Unless you can show this is actually happening on a large scale, it's going to be pretty much impossible for you to convince me that it is better to make it harder for people to vote.

[Gaspar]

Sure.

When the Poughkeepsie Journal in New York did a 2006 analysis of how names of deceased people were still on New York's official list of registered voters, it conducted the assessment by matching "the names, dates of birth and ZIP codes of all listed voters in New York's database of 11.7 million voter registration records against the same information in the Social Security Administration's 'Death Master File,' a database of 77 million records of deaths dating to 1937." That study resulted in a final estimate of as many as 77,000 dead people on its rolls, and that as many as 2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave.
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061029/NEWS01/610290381/1006/NEWS01

Also happened in Reno in 2008.
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Dead_people_voting

Acorn registered thousands of dead people.
http://www.electionjournal.org/2008/10/06/dead-man-registers-in-indiana-video-more-fraud-linked-to-acorn/

Mississippi:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2008/10/dead-ineligible-people-vote-miss/

California:
In October, KTVU Channel 2 cross-checked California's state death registry record across voter lists in the nine Bay Area counties, finding that in eight elections in the last ten years, "232 people with death certificates had voted after they had died – some more than once." 153 of these cases were from one county, Alameda. Karin MacDonald, the director of the Election Administration Research Center at UC-Berkeley, said "Probably what we're looking at is a lot of administrative error. There may very well be someone in there that somebody has voted for. Absolutely."
Dave MacDonald, the Registrar of Voters for Alameda County, said that his office attempts to keep the list of registered voters updated through the process of obtaining a file from the department of health "once or twice a year of everyone who's died in California and then we apply that to our voter registration database." He said he believes the irregularities on the voter list have to do with bookkeeping errors.

South Carolina:
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/30188916/detail.html

Kansas City:
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/generic/news/local_news/investigations/Grave-Concerns

Houston:
http://www.texaswatchdog.org/2008/10/dead-voters-still-registered-in-harris-county/


Even if a single dead person is voting, that represents the disenfranchisement of a legal voter.

[Townsend]

Sure.

Even if a single dead person is voting, that represents the disenfranchisement of a legal voter.

All were said to be suspect.  Were any proven per your articles?

You have a problem with one dead voter.  How do you feel about the Electoral college making Oklahoma presidential votes meaningless?

[Conan71]

All were said to be suspect.  Were any proven per your articles?

You have a problem with one dead voter.  How do you feel about the Electoral college making Oklahoma presidential votes meaningless?

Apples and oranges.  Electoral College is mandated by law.  Voter fraud is a crime and at best is flaunting the law.

[Townsend]

O'Keefe May Face Voter Fraud Charges

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2012/01/11/james-o-keefe-commits-fraud-at-new-hampshire-polls.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In an attempt to prove how not requiring identification at the polls in New Hampshire can lead to votor fraud, notorious conservative activist James O'Keefe may have committed a fraud himself. O'Keefe, known for carrying out harmful "stings" on organizations such as NPR, Acorn and CNN, produced a video showing his investigators successfully obtaining ballots under the names of dead people at several New Hampshire polling locations. Unfortunately for O'Keefe, the only one who actually may have committed voter fraud during Tuesday's election was him. Just obtaining ballots "that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held" is illegal.

[Conan71]

O'Keefe May Face Voter Fraud Charges

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2012/01/11/james-o-keefe-commits-fraud-at-new-hampshire-polls.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Prosecute his donkey to the fullest extent of the law.

[Townsend]

Apples and oranges.  Electoral College is mandated by law.  Voter fraud is a crime and at best is flaunting the law.

An act of fraud here and there.  The candidates are probably guilty of more.

The EC makes Oklahoma presidential elections meaningless for millions.

[nathanm]

Sorry, even if I accept the claims on their face they're immaterial. Even the sensationalistic New York numbers amount to six tenths of one percent of the electorate. Why don't you spend your time trying to impose increased lightning safety standards if you're so interested in the rare? People actually do die in house fires caused by lightning, fires that could be prevented with proper protection systems.