Nuts With Guns

[Teatownclown]

There's so many, I thought of a new topic....

This is sad: http://www.newson6.com/story/16520507/emergency-crews-respond-to-wagoner-county-shooting

Chili Bowl Racer Donnie Ray Crawford III Killed In Family Dispute

"I wonder what the grandfather and grandson were fighting about. Strange indeed. And how did the grandfather get killed when he had the gun?"
cherokeeok

[AquaMan]

Only those four were there and know. My guess is that they shot him with malice. I would if grandpa had killed my son. Stats always consistent. You're more likely to be killed with your own gun at the hands of someone you know. Logic always argues against stats.

[custosnox]

Only those four were there and know. My guess is that they shot him with malice. I would if grandpa had killed my son. Stats always consistent. You're more likely to be killed with your own gun at the hands of someone you know. Logic always argues against stats.

I'd like to see those stats, because as I sit here and think about every killing that I've heard about in the past year, only this one and possibly one other was it done with the persons own gun, and the other I'm fairly sure he didn't know the shooter.

[AquaMan]

I'd like to see those stats, because as I sit here and think about every killing that I've heard about in the past year, only this one and possibly one other was it done with the persons own gun, and the other I'm fairly sure he didn't know the shooter.

I'm not anxious for another gun discussion. To me its like a religion. Any side is defensible. So, for that reason I'm not going to go searching for stats to "defend my side". I support gun rights. Everyone has to make their own decision.

Suffice it to say, that not all shootings are dramatic enough to make the press.

[custosnox]

I'm not anxious for another gun discussion. To me its like a religion. Any side is defensible. So, for that reason I'm not going to go searching for stats to "defend my side". I support gun rights. Everyone has to make their own decision.

Suffice it to say, that not all shootings are dramatic enough to make the press.

I was just wondering about the stats, wasn't wanting to have a full on discussion (argument) over it.  It just seems at odds with what I've observed.

[AquaMan]

I was just wondering about the stats, wasn't wanting to have a full on discussion (argument) over it.  It just seems at odds with what I've observed.

I heard if first from a policeman. Then I've seen it in print, but its been awhile since I really questioned the veracity of the statement. There's so much spin anymore its probably worth doing. No doubt there are volumns written.

[custosnox]

I started looking for some stats and see things all across the board, of course leaning towards the view points of whoever is putting them out.  But one stat that caught my eye was that 40% of all suicides are with a gun, and I wonder if they are using this as part of the "killed with own gun" stats.  IMHO I don't think this should be considered the same thing when talking about anti-gun issues, because someone wanting to kill themselves are going to find a way and this is a far quicker means than most, so it comes across as more of a humanitarian issue on that.  Please don't construe this to mean I support suicide.

[nathanm]

I think the correct statement of that statistic is that you are more likely to be killed with your own gun than to use it to successfully stop an assailant.

And I'll come right out and say it: I "support" suicide, in the sense that if a person wants to take their own life there should be a legal way to accomplish that with a minimum of harm to others and it should be legal for others to assist. Obviously, one should have to demonstrate that they are of sound mind before being allowed to make use of that legal mechanism. I would envision it mainly being used by people with terminal illnesses who are staring down a long period of near-total disability.

Do I want people to do it? No. Do I think they should have the right to do it? Absolutely. It's their life and it should be their choice to end it on their terms if they so choose.

[custosnox]

I think the correct statement of that statistic is that you are more likely to be killed with your own gun than to use it to successfully stop an assailant.

I've seen both statements.  But when it comes down to statistics, especially with these kinds of things, there tends a whole lot more behind it.  One of the discussions I saw also pointed out that a large number of people shot with their own guns are LEOs, and this is primarily because they put themselves in close proximity, as part of their job, with criminals, making them a prime target for such thing.  I don't know how much truth there is to the statement, but does give something to think about on the whole thing.

And I'll come right out and say it: I "support" suicide, in the sense that if a person wants to take their own life there should be a legal way to accomplish that with a minimum of harm to others and it should be legal for others to assist. Obviously, one should have to demonstrate that they are of sound mind before being allowed to make use of that legal mechanism. I would envision it mainly being used by people with terminal illnesses who are staring down a long period of near-total disability.

Do I want people to do it? No. Do I think they should have the right to do it? Absolutely. It's their life and it should be their choice to end it on their terms if they so choose.

relief from suffering is one thing, and I agree that people should have this choice and those that help should be commended, not incarcerated.  I can't support or agree with anyone who takes their own life because "things were hard." But I also think it's stupid to make it a criminal act to do so, or attempt to do so (in this case, assistance would not be a supportable thing in my books). 

[Teatownclown]

So, nobody here is asking what the hell gramps was doing in the house with a gun having a prior conviction?

[AquaMan]

So, nobody here is asking what the hell gramps was doing in the house with a gun having a prior conviction?

Was it his gun? Was it even his house?

[custosnox]

So, nobody here is asking what the hell gramps was doing in the house with a gun having a prior conviction?

You act like it's unheard of for an ex-convict to have a gun.  I didn't really read the story, more like loosely skimmed it, so I don't know the exact nature of it all or if he is even a convicted felon or if it was something else, or if there were other circumstances that might allow him to own a firearm.  However, if someone is convicted of a felony, and it intent on breaking the law again, do you really think making it illegal for them to have a gun is going to stop them from having one?

[nathanm]

relief from suffering is one thing, and I agree that people should have this choice and those that help should be commended, not incarcerated.  I can't support or agree with anyone who takes their own life because "things were hard." But I also think it's stupid to make it a criminal act to do so, or attempt to do so (in this case, assistance would not be a supportable thing in my books). 

That's pretty much my personal standard, but I don't see how I (and by extension the government) has a strong enough stake in the outcome to say that people can't take their own lives because things are hard or for any other reason someone of sound mind wants to off themselves. Obviously, the sticky part is defining what constitutes a sound mind.

My general feeling is that I would like as much of the moralism out of the criminal code as possible, aside from those acts which actively harm others.

[custosnox]

That's pretty much my personal standard, but I don't see how I (and by extension the government) has a strong enough stake in the outcome to say that people can't take their own lives because things are hard or for any other reason someone of sound mind wants to off themselves. Obviously, the sticky part is defining what constitutes a sound mind.

My general feeling is that I would like as much of the moralism out of the criminal code as possible, aside from those acts which actively harm others.

what is so sticky about defining what constitutes a sound mind?  All you have to do is use my mind as a model, and the further from it you get, the more unsound the mind is.   

[heironymouspasparagus]

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