Downtown Densities (from S&J Discussion)

[AquaMan]

That was the subject of a thread I started last month. I'm not sure it was received too well though. It goes back to what the real purpose downtown is going to serve. Just because a decade ago we had a plan, doesn't mean we have to now ignore reality. Reality is that the middle class is shrinking and migrating downwards. We need to adjust to the fact that most housing downtown is not affordable to the young hipsters, lacking in the elements required for young families (school system, nest feathering, three car garages), and still lacking in amenities for empty nesters. That leaves retirees, pensioners, outliers, and wealthy young mover/shakers.

To justify more resources to the area means there needs to be an identifier that attracts non residents in a big way to something other than baseball and the arena.

[carltonplace]

That was the subject of a thread I started last month. I'm not sure it was received too well though. It goes back to what the real purpose downtown is going to serve. Just because a decade ago we had a plan, doesn't mean we have to now ignore reality. Reality is that the middle class is shrinking and migrating downwards. We need to adjust to the fact that most housing downtown is not affordable to the young hipsters, lacking in the elements required for young families (school system, nest feathering, three car garages), and still lacking in amenities for empty nesters. That leaves retirees, pensioners, outliers, and wealthy young mover/shakers.

To justify more resources to the area means there needs to be an identifier that attracts non residents in a big way to something other than baseball and the arena.

Higher learning
Public Transportation
Jobs
Quality of Living Amenities

Most of the hipsters that I know that are living in and around downtown are there because they like to get to and from without a car. They ride their bikes almost everywhere they go. They aren't that concerned with swanky apartments either, they live in places like the Blair, or above the storage building at Cheyenne Ave and the RR tracks, or above office buildings.

[AquaMan]

But developers don't make enough (or any) profit on the smaller, standard type abodes. They seem to believe that everyone wants what the 'burbans want and I too haven't found that to be true. Maybe I am too far removed from that age and from the needs of developers. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if someone announced a new casino opening downtown. That would be a recognition of its true emerging personality and an opportunity to draw more crowds from outside the city boundaries.

My gut feeling is that the very thing that attracted young people downtown (cheap, unique, avant garde) is going to be destroyed in the process of developing. When that happens downtown may bust. We should constantly be adapting it to attract outside visitors who drop some cash in the area just to see how the Bohemians live. When in fact, the Bohemians are gone.

[Conan71]

That was the subject of a thread I started last month. I'm not sure it was received too well though. It goes back to what the real purpose downtown is going to serve. Just because a decade ago we had a plan, doesn't mean we have to now ignore reality. Reality is that the middle class is shrinking and migrating downwards. We need to adjust to the fact that most housing downtown is not affordable to the young hipsters, lacking in the elements required for young families (school system, nest feathering, three car garages), and still lacking in amenities for empty nesters. That leaves retirees, pensioners, outliers, and wealthy young mover/shakers.

To justify more resources to the area means there needs to be an identifier that attracts non residents in a big way to something other than baseball and the arena.

I disagree the middle class is shrinking or trending downward in Tulsa.  Might be a national trend, but our income has been trending upward in recent years.

[AquaMan]

Its just a gut feeling and I only have observation to back it up. Many in the middle class may be finding themselves more secure and at a higher level than the median before 2008, but I am guessing the median of the middle class here has to have skewed downward. We lost a lot of oil execs and gained a lot of phone center execs.

[Conan71]

Its just a gut feeling and I only have observation to back it up. Many in the middle class may be finding themselves more secure and at a higher level than the median before 2008, but I am guessing the median of the middle class here has to have skewed downward. We lost a lot of oil execs and gained a lot of phone center execs.

Take a spin or jog through Maple Ridge, Florence Park, Brookside, or even out south.  The homes those oil execs and middle management used to occupy aren't empty.  Even though we may not have Citgo, Texaco, Occidental, etc. here anymore, Tulsa is every bit a huge player in the oil & gas business with all sorts of engineering and manufacturing that's bringing a ton of money into town.  I need to get you out, have a few Marshall's and adjust your paradigm set a little

[AquaMan]

Take a spin or jog through Maple Ridge, Florence Park, Brookside, or even out south.  The homes those oil execs and middle management used to occupy aren't empty.  Even though we may not have Citgo, Texaco, Occidental, etc. here anymore, Tulsa is every bit a huge player in the oil & gas business with all sorts of engineering and manufacturing that's bringing a ton of money into town.  I need to get you out, have a few Marshall's and adjust your paradigm set a little

One of these days I may take you up on those offers. My paradigm hasn't been adjusted in so, so, long.

[swake]

Its just a gut feeling and I only have observation to back it up. Many in the middle class may be finding themselves more secure and at a higher level than the median before 2008, but I am guessing the median of the middle class here has to have skewed downward. We lost a lot of oil execs and gained a lot of phone center execs.

The call centers are mostly gone, moved to India.

[Townsend]

One of these days I may take you up on those offers. My paradigm hasn't been adjusted in so, so, long.

Every comment I have is gross.

[DTowner]

But developers don't make enough (or any) profit on the smaller, standard type abodes. They seem to believe that everyone wants what the 'burbans want and I too haven't found that to be true. Maybe I am too far removed from that age and from the needs of developers. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if someone announced a new casino opening downtown. That would be a recognition of its true emerging personality and an opportunity to draw more crowds from outside the city boundaries.

My gut feeling is that the very thing that attracted young people downtown (cheap, unique, avant garde) is going to be destroyed in the process of developing. When that happens downtown may bust. We should constantly be adapting it to attract outside visitors who drop some cash in the area just to see how the Bohemians live. When in fact, the Bohemians are gone.

Isn't that what the hipsers always say when the masses discover their urbanly hip neighborhoods and the next thing you know, a GAP store opens up?  This has played out in very unTulsa-like places all over the country, such as when gentrification rolled over the previously edgy areas like SoHo, the lower East Side and the Meat Packing District in New York.  The hipsters move on to the next undiscovered locale, but the neighborhoods they leave behind ultimately come to a sort of accommodation between the hip and mass cultural that distinguishes them from other areas but also offer a sense of familiarity.

Downtown cannot be a zoo where inquisitive folks come and observe the interactions of these strange creatures known as "hipsters."  It is very hard, probably impossible, for a neighborhood much less an entire downtown to stand pat.  It's either growing or its dying, the only question is the speed at which either is happening.

[AquaMan]

Yeah, I agree with your assessment. It took me a few posts to remember that its the logical progression and repeated everywhere. The only thing I want to point out is that once those people have moved on, I'm not sure there is enough downtown to justify so much attention and investment. It won't be a neighborhood. It won't be a gathering place for the avant garde forever. At that point it has to mature and change. Like TT says, its real demographic is different than what people think it is. I am surprised that so many people don't seem to understand that "fame", such as it is, is fleeting and you must constantly adjust to fit new realities. Think Las Vegas. It has adjusted its image to keep up, stay relevant and attractive to outsiders. It could never just depend on its own residents.

[Conan71]

Yeah, I agree with your assessment. It took me a few posts to remember that its the logical progression and repeated everywhere. The only thing I want to point out is that once those people have moved on, I'm not sure there is enough downtown to justify so much attention and investment. It won't be a neighborhood. It won't be a gathering place for the avant garde forever. At that point it has to mature and change. Like TT says, its real demographic is different than what people think it is. I am surprised that so many people don't seem to understand that "fame", such as it is, is fleeting and you must constantly adjust to fit new realities. Think Las Vegas. It has adjusted its image to keep up, stay relevant and attractive to outsiders. It could never just depend on its own residents.

Revisit your statement in ten years, I think you will be surprised.  The amount of growth in the last ten years has been truly dynamic.  In 2002, I would have agreed with your assessment.  If we maintain the downtown area and private investment maintains existing buildings or develops current surface parking lots into more high-rise office or residential density, I predict you will be wrong.  The trend toward people moving back to geographic centers isn't a fad. Only time will convince you of this. The American trend toward suburbs is completely counter to 5000 or so years of civilized development which either favors dense urban centers or rural areas with much smaller hubs of commerce.

[Teatownclown]

Fad as long as the car remains king...w t f  is with the price of gasoline? They're saying $5 a gallon this summer....

If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.  

[Hoss]

Fad as long as the car remains king...w t f  is with the price of gasoline? They're saying $5 a gallon this summer....

If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.  

They've said $5 a gallon now for the past three summers...

[jacobi]

The American trend toward suburbs is completely counter to 5000 or so years of civilized development which either favors dense urban centers or rural areas with much smaller hubs of commerce.

Bravo.  This is something that is one my mind all the time.  There is an endemic inefficiency in living 10-15 miles from where one works.  We don't all deserve our own country manner houses.