2/17 Pics of Brady

[erfalf]

Isn't erfalf a resident of Bartlesville?  Does this person go to downtown Tulsa on a regular basis for entertainment or other things?  I'd reserve judgement on this poster's opinion of our downtown pending disclosure of that.

I'm not trying to be an a$$ about it; but if this person has really no skin in the game aside from viewing from afar it would be akin to me judging the CBD of Bartlesville while I live here in Tulsa.

I've lived in both (not downtown), and in all fairness Bartlesville's fate hinges greatly on Tulsa's. Casting my opinion to the side because I don't currently reside in your fair city is exactly the attitude that should be frowned upon. If this is the way things are, get ready for Tulsa to continue at the snails pace it has. Bartlesville has the same problem. If you are not in the club, you don't matter. It is a terrible view point and is why Bartlesville has literaly stood still for the last 30 years.

[erfalf]

You know that all of the public funds for housing have to be paid back right? These are revolving funds that can be allocated over and over again ad infinitum. The One place property was purchased by the developer from the TDA at fair market value, which is a cash flow positive transaction.

I thought that was a TDA property. Does the TDA attempt to make money on properties it sells or does it try to just break even? Just wondering what it's goals in that respect are.

Not trying to be a negative nancy, but how do these loans work? I was under the impression that they are both lower interest bearing and probably granted to projects that couldn't get financing otherwise. If it's not the case please let me know. I also thought some (not all) were forgivable after so many years.

It is just confusing to here things like "unless TDA funding comes through the project is dead". How is that the case? It makes the funding appear as a subsidy whether it really is or not.

[Townsend]

It is just confusing to here things like "unless TDA funding comes through the project is dead". How is that the case? It makes the funding appear as a subsidy whether it really is or not.

Where have you heard that?  Which projects?

[Hoss]

I've lived in both (not downtown), and in all fairness Bartlesville's fate hinges greatly on Tulsa's. Casting my opinion to the side because I don't currently reside in your fair city is exactly the attitude that should be frowned upon. If this is the way things are, get ready for Tulsa to continue at the snails pace it has. Bartlesville has the same problem. If you are not in the club, you don't matter. It is a terrible view point and is why Bartlesville has literaly stood still for the last 30 years.

But the problem is, if you aren't funneling sales tax into the county, then you don't qualify to complain about it.  And when I say funnel, I mean on a regular basis, not just coming in and visiting from time to time.  If you do, that's fine and please accept my apologies.

But if you don't, it's like someone complaining about the current Presidential candidates when you're not registered to vote.  Sure, you can cast your opinion, but don't expect people to consider it when decision-making is done.

Sorry, V2025 is something I think Tulsa County should be proud of.  Can you imagine what would have happened without it?  Or more accurately, what wouldn't have happened...

[DTowner]

I thought that was a TDA property. Does the TDA attempt to make money on properties it sells or does it try to just break even? Just wondering what it's goals in that respect are.

Not trying to be a negative nancy, but how do these loans work? I was under the impression that they are both lower interest bearing and probably granted to projects that couldn't get financing otherwise. If it's not the case please let me know. I also thought some (not all) were forgivable after so many years.

It is just confusing to here things like "unless TDA funding comes through the project is dead". How is that the case? It makes the funding appear as a subsidy whether it really is or not.

I think the general consensus on this board is TDA has been more a hindrance than a help in downtown development.  That said, I don't believe TDA provides any funding, but owns the land that must be acquired at a negotiated price by the developer.  

The housing money, however, is often the lynchpin for a development because it allows the developer to access private financing.  Thus, if the developer does not get the city housing loan, then the deal often dies.

[Conan71]

But the problem is, if you aren't funneling sales tax into the county, then you don't qualify to complain about it.  And when I say funnel, I mean on a regular basis, not just coming in and visiting from time to time.  If you do, that's fine and please accept my apologies.

But if you don't, it's like someone complaining about the current Presidential candidates when you're not registered to vote.  Sure, you can cast your opinion, but don't expect people to consider it when decision-making is done.

Sorry, V2025 is something I think Tulsa County should be proud of.  Can you imagine what would have happened without it?  Or more accurately, what wouldn't have happened...

It never hurts to get an outsider's opinion.  We are welcome to take it with a grain of salt or to act on it.

[swake]

It never hurts to get an outsider's opinion.  We are welcome to take it with a grain of salt or to act on it.

It doesn't hurt, but, his posts make it obvious he's not here. The change in downtown really isn't about all those projects anymore. It's in all the little places that have followed those projects downtown, it's in all the things and events that happen downtown now. It's really in the number of people that are downtown now on a very regular basis. It's so different from five years ago it's truly shocking. The majority of people in Tulsa used to at best dislike downtown and at worst fear it. Now most people go downtown on a regular basis because they want to.

This all happened with an economy in the crapper. The next five years may well make the last five look small.

[erfalf]

But the problem is, if you aren't funneling sales tax into the county, then you don't qualify to complain about it.  And when I say funnel, I mean on a regular basis, not just coming in and visiting from time to time.  If you do, that's fine and please accept my apologies.

But if you don't, it's like someone complaining about the current Presidential candidates when you're not registered to vote.  Sure, you can cast your opinion, but don't expect people to consider it when decision-making is done.

Sorry, V2025 is something I think Tulsa County should be proud of.  Can you imagine what would have happened without it?  Or more accurately, what wouldn't have happened...

Let me start by saying I mean nothing I am about to say to be taken as critical of you or anyone else here:

I do spend a considerable amount of my hard earned money in Tulsa, it is only a 45 minute drive. Tulsa greatly effects my overall quality of life. I want Tulsa to thrive. I would also like Bartlesville to thrive as well, but I also realize it's limitations. Tulsa will be my only option for many other things that Bartlesville will never be able to offer. I have no ulterior motive. Bartlesville will not be gaining anything at Tulsa's expense I can guarantee that for sure. Besides a great city always will have bedroom communities that complement it. As much as Jenks/BA/Owasso are reliant on Tulsa, the same can be said for the opposite. Tulsa is fortunate to have Jenks/BA/Owasso. Development is not a zero sum game.

One of the most powerful "voting" tools people have is where they spend their money. I choose to spend a majority in Bartlesville, however I live here and want the best for my town as well. Downtown Tulsa has some great offerings that I have tried. But, as we will see, some things will succeed and some will fail. Customers will decide with their wallets.

Just because I don't reside in Tulsa does not mean I have no skin in the game. I think what I am mostly trying to get people to look at here is to find out what really is the cause of things. If, for example, we have inaccurately diagnosed the reason for an occurrence, we may keep doing the same thing  with different results. The city of Tulsa (government) has limited resources with which to use. They need to best assess what gives the most bang for the buck.

I have never said that I don't think the BOK/ONEOK aren't great additions to Tulsa. However, are they what they were sold to be; an economic development tool? My personal opinion is that it's not as much as it was billed. It is a nice addition, no doubt. That being said I think there are things the city could be doing alternatively that would go much further in spurring economic growth throughout the city (mass transit PLEASE!). I also think the general view of living in a more urban environment is swinging in the favor of downtown regardless stadiums and arenas. That is ALL I am saying.

Most of all I want Tulsa to be great, because I am considering moving back at some point. So I am selfish in that respect. Sorry!

[Hoss]

Let me start by saying I mean nothing I am about to say to be taken as critical of you or anyone else here:

I do spend a considerable amount of my hard earned money in Tulsa, it is only a 45 minute drive. Tulsa greatly effects my overall quality of life. I want Tulsa to thrive. I would also like Bartlesville to thrive as well, but I also realize it's limitations. Tulsa will be my only option for many other things that Bartlesville will never be able to offer. I have no ulterior motive. Bartlesville will not be gaining anything at Tulsa's expense I can guarantee that for sure. Besides a great city always will have bedroom communities that complement it. As much as Jenks/BA/Owasso are reliant on Tulsa, the same can be said for the opposite. Tulsa is fortunate to have Jenks/BA/Owasso. Development is not a zero sum game.

One of the most powerful "voting" tools people have is where they spend their money. I choose to spend a majority in Bartlesville, however I live here and want the best for my town as well. Downtown Tulsa has some great offerings that I have tried. But, as we will see, some things will succeed and some will fail. Customers will decide with their wallets.

Just because I don't reside in Tulsa does not mean I have no skin in the game. I think what I am mostly trying to get people to look at here is to find out what really is the cause of things. If, for example, we have inaccurately diagnosed the reason for an occurrence, we may keep doing the same thing  with different results. The city of Tulsa (government) has limited resources with which to use. They need to best assess what gives the most bang for the buck.

I have never said that I don't think the BOK/ONEOK aren't great additions to Tulsa. However, are they what they were sold to be; an economic development tool? My personal opinion is that it's not as much as it was billed. It is a nice addition, no doubt. That being said I think there are things the city could be doing alternatively that would go much further in spurring economic growth throughout the city (mass transit PLEASE!). I also think the general view of living in a more urban environment is swinging in the favor of downtown regardless stadiums and arenas. That is ALL I am saying.

Most of all I want Tulsa to be great, because I am considering moving back at some point. So I am selfish in that respect. Sorry!

And there is nothing wrong with that...I just disagree with you on the point of did the BOK/Oneok Field attract more business.  Absolutely, and anyone who frequents downtown, or those who have businesses there will tell you as much.

I lived in Houston for three years in the early nineties.  When I left Tulsa in 1991, I left to a 71st street that was two-laned from 169 to Mingo, didn't have the Creek Turnpike and NOONE went downtown.

That all changed around the time Arnie's opened, and the Blue Dome started getting a little recognition.  Some of us would go down there after hockey games and think "wow, this really has potential", when all it was at that point was two or three bars that started to take lives of their own.

Then the talk of V2025 got underway, and the talk of a viable arena that would pull not only people from out of the region, but those from in the region as well and get them downtown and spending money in an area that didn't see commerce for years.

I'm not exactly sure when Eliot got McNellie's started, but for me, that was the seed that got the plant started.

I look at the Blue Dome now and see a thriving village with little shops here and there...nothing like what it was 10 years ago.  Hell, even five years ago.

Bringing business downtown is dependent though on having people who WANT to live there.  That's never an easy process, but it is happening.  And it is good to see that when so many people are scaling back, you see so much construction inside the IDL.

I'd wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment that the MotherShip and OneOk Field haven't spurred development.  Fat Guys Burgers and other little shops right around the ballpark...helping the old Greenwood district to get her face back again.  That's great to see.  How about the hotels?  Place One?

[DTowner]

Let me start by saying I mean nothing I am about to say to be taken as critical of you or anyone else here:

I do spend a considerable amount of my hard earned money in Tulsa, it is only a 45 minute drive. Tulsa greatly effects my overall quality of life. I want Tulsa to thrive. I would also like Bartlesville to thrive as well, but I also realize it's limitations. Tulsa will be my only option for many other things that Bartlesville will never be able to offer. I have no ulterior motive. Bartlesville will not be gaining anything at Tulsa's expense I can guarantee that for sure. Besides a great city always will have bedroom communities that complement it. As much as Jenks/BA/Owasso are reliant on Tulsa, the same can be said for the opposite. Tulsa is fortunate to have Jenks/BA/Owasso. Development is not a zero sum game.

One of the most powerful "voting" tools people have is where they spend their money. I choose to spend a majority in Bartlesville, however I live here and want the best for my town as well. Downtown Tulsa has some great offerings that I have tried. But, as we will see, some things will succeed and some will fail. Customers will decide with their wallets.

Just because I don't reside in Tulsa does not mean I have no skin in the game. I think what I am mostly trying to get people to look at here is to find out what really is the cause of things. If, for example, we have inaccurately diagnosed the reason for an occurrence, we may keep doing the same thing  with different results. The city of Tulsa (government) has limited resources with which to use. They need to best assess what gives the most bang for the buck.

I have never said that I don't think the BOK/ONEOK aren't great additions to Tulsa. However, are they what they were sold to be; an economic development tool? My personal opinion is that it's not as much as it was billed. It is a nice addition, no doubt. That being said I think there are things the city could be doing alternatively that would go much further in spurring economic growth throughout the city (mass transit PLEASE!). I also think the general view of living in a more urban environment is swinging in the favor of downtown regardless stadiums and arenas. That is ALL I am saying.

Most of all I want Tulsa to be great, because I am considering moving back at some point. So I am selfish in that respect. Sorry!

Opinions and thoughts are always welcome and outsiders can bring useful perspectives.

I think your original list had two major shortcomings that diminish your argument that the BOK and Oneok Field have not delivered on their backers' promises.  The first is you over included public moneys in the ongoing projects you listed.  As previously discussed, the housing money is a loan and is more like seed money to help projects, not fund them entirely.  Indeed, some of this money predates Vision 2025.

Second, your list ignored a number of developments that have already occurred and that the developers have said were done because of the public investment of Vision 2025.  Some of the bigger such projects include the Mayo Hotel and the Courtyard by Marriott, and the Mayo Lofts and Tribune Lofts II.  There are also numerous restaurants and clubs in the Brady and Blue Dome that would probably not exist if not for the BOK Center.  OnePlace is also directly attributable to the BOK Center and its developers have said it would not have occurred otherwise.

I don't think the BOK supporters ever said it would solve all of Tulsa's problems.  What they said was that it would provide a venue to attrack top tier entertainment, attrack events and visitors downtown and help attrack private investment to push revitalization forward.  Vision 2025 also made our outdated convention center competitive with our regional peers.  The BOK Center is in its third year of operation and I think by any measure it has more than lived up to promises made when Vision 2025 was considered.  The biggest knock was the lack of development around the arena.  That is now changing with OnePlace and the Aloft Hotel.  I think Oneok Field has been beneficial to the Brady, but has not yet had the impact supporters predicted.  However, try to go to McNellies or Joe Mamma's on a Drillers' game night.

While I'm not sure anyone can ever prove to a doubter's satisfaction that the completed projects and those under construction would not have occurred but for Vision 2025 and the ball park, I know how little had happened and was happening downtown before passage of Vision 2025 and that much of what has happened after Vission 2025 has occurred during a deep recession and a slow recovery.  I also know that Tulsa's experience is not unique - numerous cities that made similar public investments have seen similar private development follow.

While I think it is fair to ask whether the BOK Center and Oneok Field have lived up to their promise, you can't ignore the reality of what is happening in forming your answer.  If you believe the development that has occurred and is occurring would have happened had Tulsa done nothing, then the burden is really on you to prove that point and demonstrate where it has worked out that way.

[Jeff P]

However, are they what they were sold to be; an economic development tool? My personal opinion is that it's not as much as it was billed.

I guess it depends on your definition of "economic development."

But even if your definition varies, I don't know how you could possibly say that the BOK Center has been anything but a smashing success on this front.  In its 3+ years of operations, it has brought literally dozens of events to town that would have in no way, shape or form been here without it.  Practically every A-list concert, other travelling events like the Dinosaurs alive show (or whatever that was called), the NCAA Tournament, etc.

Those events generated untold amounts of hotel rooms and local spending that would have otherwise not been here.  Every one of those events would have been in OKC, Kansas City, Little Rock, Wichita or wherever.  How is that not "economic development"?

And while some downtown projects might get the benefit of different sources of public funding, do you think they would have all happened had the BOK Center not been there?  Would we have added two hotels downtown with two more on the way?

Would Blake and Elliot have been able to build the Blue Dome District from scratch?  Would Dwelling Spaces, Fleet Feet and Lee's moved downtown?  What about all of the residential units going in... or the grocery stores?

I don't doubt that some of this stuff would have happened... but there's no way we would have reached this critical mass of development that's going on right now without the BOK Center.  No way.  It may not directly cause everything, but it was the first domino to fall in the transformation of downtown.

It is a nice addition, no doubt. That being said I think there are things the city could be doing alternatively that would go much further in spurring economic growth throughout the city (mass transit PLEASE!).

I would like to see mass transit, but I have a very hard time believing that investing in mass transit in a spread out city with low population density would actually spur the kind of economic development we've seen in the wake of the BOK Center.

[Hoss]

It doesn't hurt, but, his posts make it obvious he's not here. The change in downtown really isn't about all those projects anymore. It's in all the little places that have followed those projects downtown, it's in all the things and events that happen downtown now. It's really in the number of people that are downtown now on a very regular basis. It's so different from five years ago it's truly shocking. The majority of people in Tulsa used to at best dislike downtown and at worst fear it. Now most people go downtown on a regular basis because they want to.

This all happened with an economy in the crapper. The next five years may well make the last five look small.

And I'm downtown enough (as an Oiler season ticket holder, which puts me down there at least 30 times in 8 months) that I see the dynamism of what is going on.  Watching Place One go from a leveled parking lot to what it looks like now is beauty to behold.  Being able to go see Foo Fighters downtown instead of having to travel to Little Rock or KC or OKC or Dallas...that's the intangible called 'quality of living'.  Getting upset that I have to detour around a construction zone that wasn't there last week.  Seeing the Boulder Bridge started.  Watching the transformation over the years along 3rd Street...I can name so many more, but it's pointless.  Unless you see it on a regular basis.

[BKDotCom]

I'd wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment that the MotherShip and OneOk Field haven't spurred development.  Fat Guys Burgers and other little shops right around the ballpark...helping the old Greenwood district to get her face back again.  That's great to see.  How about the hotels?  Place One?

So we can call the millions of taxpayer dollar invested in the ballpark and higher downtown property taxes worth it because a burger joint sprouted up next door?   I'm not aware of anything else that's been developed around the ballpark.
Kinda operating in the red there.

PS I think the ballpark is good for downtown, but so far... it hasn't spurred squat.

[Hoss]

So we can call the millions of taxpayer dollar invested in the ballpark and higher downtown property taxes worth it because a burger joint sprouted up next door?   I'm not aware of anything else that's been developed around the ballpark.
Kinda operating in the red there.

PS I think the ballpark is good for downtown, but so far... it hasn't spurred squat.

Nice way to cherry pick.  OneOk is spawning more than just that..the hotel comes to mind...

[BKDotCom]

Nice way to cherry pick.  OneOk is spawning more than just that..the hotel comes to mind...

The hotel is being developed because of the ballpark??
Is the ballpark also responsible for the Matthews warehouse, AH-HA, Tribune-II, KOTV, park, etc??