(PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa

[Townsend]

It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper:

I don't think that this is, no.

[SXSW]

This is a great plan, potentially a transformative project for the city and could help eventually get a river plan passed once its complete and people are suddenly more interested in the riverfront.

Some of my thoughts:
1) The "area of possible expansion" along Crow Creek to me should be some kind of high quality, higher-density residential development along with the rest of the Crow Creek apartments.  This is a unique opportunity for a mix of apartments and townhouses that would have a very desirable location. 
2) I love the plan for a Crow Creek greenbelt with a multi-use trail.  It doesn't show it but I would hope the trail would be extended to at least Peoria, and preferably to Zink Park.
3) Hopefully this creates the impetus for the city to finally build sidewalks along 31st St. through midtown so people can walk to this park.
4) I still hope one day the concrete plant can also become a signature green space, probably only possible if GKFF is somehow involved.  Maybe after this project is completed.  Surround the river with parks and green space, and it can make the surrounding neighborhoods better.  Keep the retail/residential density where it belongs downtown not spread out too thin by having a river retail area, downtown retail area, etc. 

[carltonplace]

Agreed on the need for side walks on 31st Street. So many runners are using the street there (myself included) and it's an uneasy experience that requires lots of looking behind you and then jumping up onto the curb when a car comes.

[Patrick]

I discussed this with a projects coordinator with Incog and they said that they expect at some time in the next few years to include bike lanes on 31st from Peoria to Riverside.

[AquaMan]

Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

[swake]

That would make sense, take 31st down to 2 lanes away from the Riverside and Peoria intersections and add trails and lighting on the south side of the street.

[BKDotCom]

Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

there will be maintenance... but Kaiser is footing the bill there.
Yes, it is "just a park" .   So is Woodward
I think comparing the Gathering Place to any park with in this region / timezone, is like like comparing Tulsa to NYC.  Both are cities, but the comparison ends there.   This will be to Tulsa, like Central park is to NYC, or Golden Gate park to San Fran.

I'll be going to NYC in a couple months.  I'm going to make a point to check out the Brooklyn park this guy's done.

[sauerkraut]

It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper: The minute you fix one thing, something else stands out that needs to be fixed.

Yeah it always turns out to be more than you can chew. "Never bite off more than ya can chew" should be rule #1.

[sauerkraut]

I never liked Riverside Drive being so close to the RiverSide jogging trails- I wish there was a way to change that, either close down Riverside Drive to motor traffic and turn the street into a jogging trail, and re-locate the motor traffic elsewhere or tear down  the buildings east of the current Riverside Drive and build a new Riverside Drive road there and tear up and fill in the current Riverside Drive with grass, so the trails and motor traffic will be farther apart. But the cost of doing that would be in orbit... The west bank trails don't have vehicle traffic so near. Since I'm on the topic, I wish the casino would re-locate the jogging trail to the back near the river so runners would not have to cross a busy casino driveway. Jogging trails and street crossings are a bad mix and should be avoided. They keep talking about moving the trails but nothing is ever done. The jogging trail would really be nice if it could go  from 71st street to 101st and bypass the casino traffic totally. I enjoy the short section of trail  south of 71st street it's far from the Riverside traffic and noise but near 81st street  the trail curves east toward Riverside Drive and south to the casino, a bad section to run on.

[TheArtist]

I never liked Riverside Drive being so close to the RiverSide jogging trails- I wish there was a way to change that, either close down Riverside Drive to motor traffic and turn the street into a jogging trail, and re-locate the motor traffic elsewhere or tear down  the buildings east of the current Riverside Drive and build a new Riverside Drive road there and tear up and fill in the current Riverside Drive with grass, so the trails and motor traffic will be farther apart. But the cost of doing that would be in orbit... The west bank trails don't have vehicle traffic so near. Since I'm on the topic, I wish the casino would re-locate the jogging trail to the back near the river so runners would not have to cross a busy casino driveway. Jogging trails and street crossings are a bad mix and should be avoided. They keep talking about moving the trails but nothing is ever done. The jogging trail would really be nice if it could go  from 71st street to 101st and bypass the casino traffic totally. I enjoy the short section of trail  south of 71st street it's far from the Riverside traffic and noise but near 81st street  the trail curves east toward Riverside Drive and south to the casino, a bad section to run on.

I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature    However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.

[BKDotCom]

I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature    However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.

Agreed.  It helps give it a more urban feel.
If you want away from traffic, enjoy the trail on the west side of the river (or the Osage trail)

[Conan71]

Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

I do not miss the crappy asphalt that used to top that levy. 

[AquaMan]

the area I am talking about was not a levy. Its an old railroad bed. It wasn't nice for guys in spandex cruising in top gear, but it was a nice, quiet walk or run. I like it just fine now as its more available for everyone. Its just that runners seem to think the paths should be made for them (Sauer would replace Riverside drive with a running path), bikers are sure they should be made for them and parents with strollers and dogs want everything to be for them.

That leaves a lot of other people who end up paying for amenities for those three groups but find little to like about the outcomes. A repaving of an old narrow, overgrown path with lots of character would have been fine. Of course, now I see that as part of the plan for The Gathering Place and its Whitewater park this little path needed to be enlarged and improved. But the activities aren't happening for a long time to come, maybe never. Without them the whole thing benefits fewer segments of the population. In fact its kind of boring for the rest of us.

Even Dewey made clear in his campaign remarks that real development "around the river" is contingent upon improvements and activities "on the river".

[Conan71]

the area I am talking about was not a levy. Its an old railroad bed. It wasn't nice for guys in spandex cruising in top gear, but it was a nice, quiet walk or run. I like it just fine now as its more available for everyone. Its just that runners seem to think the paths should be made for them (Sauer would replace Riverside drive with a running path), bikers are sure they should be made for them and parents with strollers and dogs want everything to be for them.

That leaves a lot of other people who end up paying for amenities for those three groups but find little to like about the outcomes. A repaving of an old narrow, overgrown path with lots of character would have been fine. Of course, now I see that as part of the plan for The Gathering Place and its Whitewater park this little path needed to be enlarged and improved. But the activities aren't happening for a long time to come, maybe never. Without them the whole thing benefits fewer segments of the population. In fact its kind of boring for the rest of us.

Even Dewey made clear in his campaign remarks that real development "around the river" is contingent upon improvements and activities "on the river".

I know exactly where you are talking about I've always called the roadbed a "levy".  I guess I fail to understand what is not to like about smooth pavement and better lighting rather than crapped out asphalt that wasn't even a pleasure nor safe (IMO) to run on anymore. 

In a diverse city like Tulsa we all pay for amenities we never use: I don't have kids in TPS, there are many roads I never drive or ride on in Tulsa, I've never visited our fancier city hall, have only been to BOK center twice in five years, rarely take in our museums, yet I pay my share for those amenities, and it doesn't bother me.

[AquaMan]

I know exactly where you are talking about I've always called the roadbed a "levy".  I guess I fail to understand what is not to like about smooth pavement and better lighting rather than crapped out asphalt that wasn't even a pleasure nor safe (IMO) to run on anymore. 

In a diverse city like Tulsa we all pay for amenities we never use: I don't have kids in TPS, there are many roads I never drive or ride on in Tulsa, I've never visited our fancier city hall, have only been to BOK center twice in five years, rarely take in our museums, yet I pay my share for those amenities, and it doesn't bother me.

Well, gee, I wish I was you.

Levees hold water back. Railroads hold trains up. The civics lesson was un-necessary.

This path was in need of a new coat of asphalt, just like they re-pave side streets rather than dig them up and pour concrete to make it smoother for high speed bikers who think they're preparing for Olympic events. It didn't need widened, marked, concreted, lit all night and made suburban pretty. The auditory, stop light on 21st is a nice touch but no one was complaining. Now cars have to stop both ways for two blocks for one pedestrian and often just run it anyway. But like I already said, I have no problem with it. Its a nice path. And I understand why they did it considering the expected traffic for the water park. It just lost its character and it now appears overdone without a water activity at the other end.

You'll never hear me complain about a water spray park at 41st and Riverside that I've never even visited either. I wish it had been there when my kids were little but everyone wanted to spend money on running paths and tennis courts back then. Never enough of them and always in demand. So they built more courts and paths then those phases diminished and they all fell into dis-repair. Parks dept didn't have money.

Now its bikes and parks and we're all supposed to feign excitement for what looks to be a pretty boring little park with limited access. You are in one of those groups that insists on all of us dedicating public assets for your current passion. I'm in one too! Try to step out of that world and look at all the overweight, elderly, infirm, unhealthy, desk chained, overworked taxpayers who help fund our passions and understand this: it was good Kaiser jumped in because had it come to a vote the population would have shrugged.