(PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa

[guido911]

Onward and upward.

[Conan71]

The Gathering will be another generation's vision.

Ironically the vision of a gentleman older than yourself. Or at least he shares the vision.

[AquaMan]

I surmise its more the foundation's vision than his though he probably has strong influence. My understanding is that part of the rules of the money being sheltered from taxes is that you don't direct the foundation.

Its ironic to me that yet another landmark has failed to be preserved in favor of demolition and rebuilding. "....an organization focused on intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa". Well, at least its a revitalization of sorts.

Sure looks a lot like the relatively unused Central Park development. Photographers will love it.

[Conan71]

I surmise its more the foundation's vision than his though he probably has strong influence. My understanding is that part of the rules of the money being sheltered from taxes is that you don't direct the foundation.

Its ironic to me that yet another landmark has failed to be preserved in favor of demolition and rebuilding. "....an organization focused on intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa". Well, at least its a revitalization of sorts.

Sure looks a lot like the relatively unused Central Park development. Photographers will love it.

Simple day-to-day operation of the foundation probably doesn't require much input from Mr. Kaiser.  I suspect he is consulted before major projects such as this as it is his name which becomes associated with it.

Central Park doesn't have a high walkability factor attached to it.  It's in an odd area bordered by the Pearl to the east which is still in somewhat of an identity crisis and an expressway which blocks it from downtown.  To me, the design of it was a tasteful way to mask the fact it's a flood retention pond, not a recreation area.

The gathering place will see high utilization from it's proximity to the already popular river trails and the pedestrian bridge.  Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area has really exploded the last few years due to the completion of the west bank trail to 71st as well as creating a large parking area with nice restrooms and an inviting trail head.  If you build it near the river, they will come.

The Blair Mansion had a very low historical value to the city.  It was built around 1960 as a copy of an 1850 plantation home according to occasional TNF poster and Tulsa architectural historian Shane Hood.  It's significance is nowhere near that of the grand oil mansions of the 1920's and 1930's.  Sure, it was a landmark people remember seeing as they drove along Riverside, other than that, it's a property largely cloaked in mystery which was never publicly accessible.  I suspect in 20 years most Tulsans will have forgotten what used to be on that homesite. 

[SXSW]

Central Park also suffers from a lack of programming.  That is the element that has made Guthrie Green so popular, and will make the Gathering Place even more so if done right.  I do think Central Park will be more utilized as the Pearl develops.  I think Veterans Park could be redeveloped into something similar with the same creek (Elm Creek) running through it, albeit underground in a tunnel through Veterans Park.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Houses don't need to be preserved because a lot of people drove past them a lot.  I have faith in their plan for the park and if it was a make or break for the park they can rebuild it. 

[AquaMan]

Having lived here in the 1970's and watching downtown and near downtown be disassembled and left vacant for decades while planners and the public were fed the same watercolor drawings of vibrant malls, water features and throngs of visitors you'll have to excuse my skepticism. For decades I've watched historical buildings be flattened by OSU for no reason (to wit Tulsa's first firestation that housed horse drawn firetrucks), countless river development scenarios, watched TCC cannibalize potential in favor of suburban style parking and watched public school buildings left to deteriorate and then be razed. Cherry Street is half vacant, Pearl has been given over, and imo Brady may be over hyped.

And I have to tell you, the same remarks were made during those debacles. Things like, "these aren't historically important", "these are pos structures", "this is what the public wants", "Its private property and they can do what they want", "no one will ride mass transit or trains". And many of them were accurate. Nonetheless, these buildings were the character of the city and now our character is flat parking lots, vacant land and pretty watercolor renderings.  I am glad you all have faith in these "leaders" and that it all works out.

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

I am out of the mainstream of the community and am aggressively searching for a more palatable city that follows through on its promises and values its heritage in practice rather than in library photo collections. I know that won't bother many of you (Guido...) but it should. I committed for four decades as an adult, raised a family and contributed my share and now I feel like none of it is much respected. Many of my friends feel the same way and have given up on any real growth politically and economically here. We'll serve out our time here, make money here, we'll capitalize on our wise decisions in our youth here, but its not our city anymore.

[Conan71]

Having lived here in the 1970's and watching downtown and near downtown be disassembled and left vacant for decades while planners and the public were fed the same watercolor drawings of vibrant malls, water features and throngs of visitors you'll have to excuse my skepticism. For decades I've watched historical buildings be flattened by OSU for no reason (to wit Tulsa's first firestation that housed horse drawn firetrucks), countless river development scenarios, watched TCC cannibalize potential in favor of suburban style parking and watched public school buildings left to deteriorate and then be razed. Cherry Street is half vacant, Pearl has been given over, and imo Brady may be over hyped.

And I have to tell you, the same remarks were made during those debacles. Things like, "these aren't historically important", "these are pos structures", "this is what the public wants", "Its private property and they can do what they want", "no one will ride mass transit or trains". And many of them were accurate. Nonetheless, these buildings were the character of the city and now our character is flat parking lots, vacant land and pretty watercolor renderings.  I am glad you all have faith in these "leaders" and that it all works out.

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

I am out of the mainstream of the community and am aggressively searching for a more palatable city that follows through on its promises and values its heritage in practice rather than in library photo collections. I know that won't bother many of you (Guido...) but it should. I committed for four decades as an adult, raised a family and contributed my share and now I feel like none of it is much respected. Many of my friends feel the same way and have given up on any real growth politically and economically here. We'll serve out our time here, make money here, we'll capitalize on our wise decisions in our youth here, but its not our city anymore.

I'm just old enough to remember Betsy Horowitz's fight against the expressway extension through Maple Ridge.  I worked downtown when it was a ghost town relative to today. Like you, I've seen many landmarks pulled down and turned into one parking lot after another.

It's a shame your paradigm has become so tarnished.  If you would have said the same thing in the early 1990's, I would have bought in.  It almost seems like your mind is stuck in that time period as that would have been an accurate reflection of that point in time, not 2014.  Personally, I've not noticed any vacant store fronts on Cherry Street, and The "Matthew" Brady District is on very sound footing.  At one point, I would have thought Guthrie Green was a waste of space which would fall victim to neglect.  Not so.  I see young and old Tulsans embracing and utilizing the new amenities we have now.  Remarkably, much renovation and new construction continued on in spite of the dire economic issues facing the nation the last six years.

The Cherry Street Farmer's Market is packed every Saturday.  Every event I've been to at Guthrie Green has been packed.  Events in the Blue Dome such as the arts festival, Tulsa Tough, and the food truck festival are always packed.  You can't find a parking spot at Turkey Mountain nor any Riverparks parking lot on a sunny weekend day.  You'd be surprised how many people your age are participating instead of looking on with distrustful skepticism.

[DTowner]

Shouldn't we be celebrating on a stack of This Land Press newspapers the razing of a house modeled after Jefferson Davis' home in Mississippi?

While it is dangerous to say "this time it's different", the Kaiser Foundation's track record in Tulsa is pretty good on following through on its plan and the Gathering Place will be a game changer for Tulsa and something truly special.  Therefore, the examples Aqua cites where buildings were cleared on grand plans that never happened do not seem to apply here.  This house was going away, the only question was whether it was moved to some new cite or torn down.  Tulsa has destroyed way too much of its heritage, but I am not feeling it on this one.

[BKDotCom]

Houses don't need to be preserved because a lot of people drove past them a lot.  I have faith in their plan for the park and if it was a make or break for the park they can rebuild it. 

Perhaps a plaque can be placed in the park where the house stood.

On this site stood a house that a lot of people drove past
Built 1952
Raised Feb 1, 2014

[AquaMan]

Each time I felt the same way, BK. Each time it was "going to happen". And most times, "something" happened but not what was presented. They were all over promised. But, they all suffered from lack of the same components....a homogeneous population, a growing population, a progressive population. Southies, midtowners, downtowners, westies, northsiders and eastsiders all hate each other for the very reasons they each find their own areas attractive. Of course we all hate the suburbans  . Enclaves have formed based on race, income, religion, social class, education and politics. The result is categories feeling marginalized and uncomfortable. As a local Deco poster keeps reminding us, we are stagnated in growth. That combined with the other divisions and the lack of much class mobility means we are simply always going to be huffing and puffing with festivals here and there without much real movement.

Any of you take note of the recent protests in SF about the transportation system? The coasts are always a few years ahead and worthy of note for those who enjoy preparing for opportunity. Seems the city worked real hard to set up a public transit system (CalTrans) that would serve all the population including those who were commuting to silicon valley. However, they neglected to understand that what the leaders saw as "service to the public" was not palatable to a younger, wealthier, class based population. The young techies didn't want to ride next to working class folks, who dressed differently, played different music, didn't conform to their accepted norms. The companies they worked for petitioned the city to allow their own private buses to utilize the public bus stops to these commuters. SF allowed it and they now hog the stops keeping the regular buses late and underutilized. The communities around them, now conveniently served by private carriers, have begun to gentrify. Rents are skyrocketing and working people are being driven out.

Seems a bit of foresight might have helped. Just sayin', what is the purpose of many of our current "hot" developments and are they based on faulty assumptions.

Conan, just drove by Cherry Sunday nite (Peoria to Harvard). Other than the really smart redevelopment of the Colony(?) building which is empty by design, there are lots of empty, for lease, or just plain empty locations. Worse than that many of the businesses seem to have not lasted very long when they were rented. Either the rents are too high, the tenants poor planners or the area isn't drawing well. IMO its all three.

[carltonplace]

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

I think you understimate the appreciation that the young have for Tulsa and its historic places. Many of the vibrant new businesses and the cool living spaces in these old places are owned by people under 40. Owen Park, Brady Heights and Riverview are filled with young people and young families.

I have a lot of respect for you and your opionion AM, I think maybe spring will improve your outlook.

[AquaMan]

Perhaps. Appreciate your comments. There are stages that we all go through, and unfortunately what you learn in each one is not easily transferrable to the incomings. Like teenagers, most of us seem to have to learn by experience.

Strangely, I have more in common with those youngers from 20-30 than I do with the 30-55 group.

[Conan71]

Conan, just drove by Cherry Sunday nite (Peoria to Harvard). Other than the really smart redevelopment of the Colony(?) building which is empty by design, there are lots of empty, for lease, or just plain empty locations. Worse than that many of the businesses seem to have not lasted very long when they were rented. Either the rents are too high, the tenants poor planners or the area isn't drawing well. IMO its all three.

I imagine it did look like a ghost town on a Sunday night.  The area people consider Cherry Street Proper is Peoria to Utica.  There's been good stability on that stretch for some time.  If you extend it as far as Lewis, it's dominated by medical professionals and attorneys, with very little turn-over.

Other than the subdivided spaces closer to Harvard, there's been little turnover on the Lewis to Harvard stretch of 15th over the last 10-20 years. Even businesses I thought would be marginal have done well for a long time, like Momma Trizza's, The Bead Merchant, Pie Hole, Cheap Thrills.  The equipment rental place has been there for 15-20 years, Bewley Sweeper has been there well over 30 years, and University of Wash probably 20 years.  I'll drive it this afternoon and take a look, maybe there's been a sudden cataclysm that claimed businesses I still imagine being there. 

[swake]

I imagine it did look like a ghost town on a Sunday night.  The area people consider Cherry Street Proper is Peoria to Utica.  There's been good stability on that stretch for some time.  If you extend it as far as Lewis, it's dominated by medical professionals and attorneys, with very little turn-over.

Other than the subdivided spaces closer to Harvard, there's been little turnover on the Lewis to Harvard stretch of 15th over the last 10-20 years. Even businesses I thought would be marginal have done well for a long time, like Momma Trizza's, The Bead Merchant, Pie Hole, Cheap Thrills.  The equipment rental place has been there for 15-20 years, Bewley Sweeper has been there well over 30 years, and University of Wash probably 20 years.  I'll drive it this afternoon and take a look, maybe there's been a sudden cataclysm that claimed businesses I still imagine being there. 

Sunday Night also would happen to be the Superbowl.