(PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa

[SXSW]

I routinely visit Scissortail Park and it's a night and day difference between it and the Gathering Place. Really puts into perspective how nice it is.

That is what we would've had for closer to $100M.  Still a nice park but not on the same level as Gathering Place

[tulsabug]

Has anyone seen this business about Gathering Place suing a coffee shop in Shawnee with the same name, lol?

People are losing their s**t about it on social media because of the optics, of course. There's little to no detail as to why.  I'm no expert on trademark laws, but seems like I've read in the past that if you become aware that someone is using your trademark/brand and they refuse to change and you *don't* sue then you run risk of losing your trademark protection in future cases because you "let" another party use it in another instance....? Have no idea if that's what's going on here, but it seems pretty weird (who cares if a coffee shop in a small town 100 miles away has the same name?) so wondering if that's the case.

https://www.fox23.com/news/local/tulsas-gathering-place-files-lawsuit-against-oklahoma-coffee-shop-with-same-name/F5PELYFOU5APFOGDAIC7TU2FFI/

Legally they have to defend their trademark. Even though the coffee shop isn't a park, the park does have a coffee shop so while the shop at TGP isn't named that they are in the same industry plus the trademark does stretch into restaurant services.
Word Mark   GATHERING PLACE
Goods and Services   IC 039. US 100 105. G & S: Boathouse services. FIRST USE: 20180810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20180908
IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Gardens for public admission; Providing facilities for recreational activities, namely, boating, fishing, biking and skating; Providing facilities for educational training; Providing recreation facilities; Providing recreational areas in the nature of play areas for children; Providing sports facilities; Recreational park services; Entertainment in the nature of a water park and amusement center. FIRST USE: 20180810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20180908
IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: Provision of conference, exhibition and meeting facilities; Restaurant services. FIRST USE: 20180810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20180908

I'm curious if the coffee shop existed before the park but it doesn't sound like they did which doesn't bode well for them.

That all being said - it's a stupid name and both places should come up with something better. If anything this lawsuit is a massive gift to that coffee shop - tons of free advertising and and even more when they change their name to something not ambiguous and unrememberable.

[Jeff P]

Yeah, it's a bad look.

Speaking of bad looks, does anyone else feel that the Gathering Place just feels "off" now that the hype has faded and the shine has worn off?

I often ride up there on Sunday afternoons, and I just can't shake the vibe that this park missed the mark somehow. The boathouse never lets people rent canoes, and it's not like the pond provides much space for that activity anyway so the boats are basically just decorations and the boathouse is just an excuse to have a bit of AC and a nice patio. All of the wood throughout the park seems to be faded and deteriorating, as if they didn't use proper outdoor-rated wood and haven't stained or added preservative to anything. It looks like they have to replace all the wood furniture every few years.

A lot of the play areas are rarely open (especially the water play features), and there's signs of deterioration over there as well, although that is more understandable since the playground is at least used so heavily.

The natural-look flowerbeds are typically overgrown with grass and weeds, though there are a few places where the natural wildflowers come through and the butterflies seem to enjoy it at least. In some areas of the park they recently brushhogged the landscaping and it just looks bad. Without significant landscaping effort every single year, it's hard to keep up what the architects envisioned and it just becomes a massive weed patch.

And then there's all the rules: no dogs, no bikes, no roller blades, etc. In our largest public park. There's also a sand beach, but you can't enter the water and aren't even supposed to let your kids wade into it. It just feels weird to have so many constrictive rules for what is supposed to be a park. It's always felt like this is some billionaire's backyard that he just lets us play in rather than an actual Tulsa park.

I can't shake the feeling that if they had spent $100 million instead of $500 million we'd probably have a park that is just as good if not better and didn't feel so constrictive and over-done.

I think the same process is repeating for both the Discovery Center and the Bridge. There is a disconnect between what the actual end users want and what the designers are going for. It's like we are trying to make overzealous imitations of what we think world class facilities look like instead of building what we actually want.

Hmmm I disagree with this totally. Maybe you've been visiting at times when the weather was extra hot or something? I live right by the Gathering Place and it is PACKED every time the weather is anywhere near nice.

And I disagree with your assessment of the landscaping. The natural areas aren't "overgrown" with "grass and weeds"... those are all native prairie grasses that were planted there on purpose to create natural "fill." The wildflowers bloom in the spring and fade in the summer (for the most part).... it's a natural cycle for the plants.  The primroses have to be cut back in some areas or they will totally take over.

[TheArtist]

Legally they have to defend their trademark. Even though the coffee shop isn't a park, the park does have a coffee shop so while the shop at TGP isn't named that they are in the same industry plus the trademark does stretch into restaurant services.
Word Mark   GATHERING PLACE
Goods and Services   IC 039. US 100 105. G & S: Boathouse services. FIRST USE: 20180810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20180908
IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Gardens for public admission; Providing facilities for recreational activities, namely, boating, fishing, biking and skating; Providing facilities for educational training; Providing recreation facilities; Providing recreational areas in the nature of play areas for children; Providing sports facilities; Recreational park services; Entertainment in the nature of a water park and amusement center. FIRST USE: 20180810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20180908
IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: Provision of conference, exhibition and meeting facilities; Restaurant services. FIRST USE: 20180810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20180908

I'm curious if the coffee shop existed before the park but it doesn't sound like they did which doesn't bode well for them.

That all being said - it's a stupid name and both places should come up with something better. If anything this lawsuit is a massive gift to that coffee shop - tons of free advertising and and even more when they change their name to something not ambiguous and unrememberable.

From what I gather the coffee shop did exist before the Gathering Place did/chose its name. But don't know for sure.  Also, the Gathering Place is actually a pretty common name used by dozens of businesses all over the US, including other coffee shops in other states.



I would really like to know more about trademark law.  Every time I ask questions nobody seems to either understand what I am asking or know the answers.

I wanted to somehow trademark the word DECOPOLIS in the US but was advised to do it as a "Gift Shop selling books, toys, t-shirts, etc."  But I was like... So does that mean someone else could use or trademark DECOPOLIS as say a Coffee Shop, or a shoe store, or an art gallery, a software company? And if I wanted to prevent that I would have to spend the money and time to trademark every possible use etc.?

Aren't words like Xerox, Velcro, Gucci or Kleenex trademarked? And wouldn't I get in trouble using them in any retail manner or on any product (Gucci Art Gallery, Velcro Rock Climbing Gym, etc. lol? How do those get such a broad trademark but I can't do the same for say Discovitorium (a word I created and googled to see whether anyone had ever used it, nobody had anywhere) but yet when I talk to local trademark lawyers they can't seem to give me the same answer of wanting me to trademark it as a specific product or gift shop or something like that. I want DECOPOLIS and Discovitorium to be "brands" with the same broad trademark protections that those examples I gave. But I just get blank stares and they go back to the usual answers lol.

Am I crazy for what I am wanting or what's going on? lol

[swake]

This very thread calling the park Gathering Place dates to 2012.  The Facebook page for the coffee shop was created in 2016.

[TheArtist]

Been longer than I thought!   I do remember for a time they had announced the park, but they did not have an official name for it.

But does that mean they will sue all these other places?  Is there a difference between a business being in Oklahoma versus another state in this instance? aka is this just a state trademark issue versus a federal one?

There are Gathering Places all over the country, it is a commonly used name in business for everything from coffee shops and cafe's to parks and community centers. There are literally dozens of other coffee shops and cafes with the name.


https://www.gatheringplacebadaxe.com

https://www.thegatheringplaces.com

https://www.nps.gov/places/000/the-gathering-place.htm

https://www.gatheringplacemi.com

https://thegatheringplacerestaurant.com

https://www.thegatheringplacewichita.com

https://gatheringplacemt.com

https://www.thegatheringplaceatpinetop.com

https://gatheringplaceresort.com

https://www.thegatheringplacevenue.com

https://peachtree-city.org/307/The-Gathering-Place

https://www.thegatheringplaceak.com

https://www.thegpsedona.com

https://www.alapark.com/parks/lake-guntersville-state-park/gathering-place

https://www.gatheringplacebrewing.com

https://www.libertygatheringplace.com

And I could go on and on.....


If I can come up with a unique name or two or three.... DECOPOLIS,  Discovitorium,  FableRealm (although there is now a Fable Realm Farms... should I sue?) etc. surely those with as deep a pockets as this park has they could come up with something more unique or not get upset after the fact that it's so common.  If I chose a common name that dozens of other similar businesses used (though again I don't see this coffee shop in another city being confused for this large park) I can't see how I could be upset by someone else using it. Now if someone uses DECOPOLIS or Discovitorium... in a similar venture, I will be all over them. But I intentionally came up with those names because they are unique.  I invented the word Discovitorium and after I came up with DECOPOLIS (meaning the Deco City) the only other DECOPOLIS I could find anywhere on earth was a hotel in Panama and an outdoor furniture place somewhere in Europe. Thats it. Not a hundred places all over the US.


 

[swake]

Been longer than I thought!   I do remember for a time they had announced the park, but they did not have an official name for it.

But does that mean they will sue all these other places?  Is there a difference between a business being in Oklahoma versus another state in this instance? aka is this just a state trademark issue versus a federal one?

There are Gathering Places all over the country, it is a commonly used name in business for everything from coffee shops and cafe's to parks and community centers. There are literally dozens of other coffee shops and cafes with the name.


https://www.gatheringplacebadaxe.com

https://www.thegatheringplaces.com

https://www.nps.gov/places/000/the-gathering-place.htm

https://www.gatheringplacemi.com

https://thegatheringplacerestaurant.com

https://www.thegatheringplacewichita.com

https://gatheringplacemt.com

https://www.thegatheringplaceatpinetop.com

https://gatheringplaceresort.com

https://www.thegatheringplacevenue.com

https://peachtree-city.org/307/The-Gathering-Place

https://www.thegatheringplaceak.com

https://www.thegpsedona.com

https://www.alapark.com/parks/lake-guntersville-state-park/gathering-place

https://www.gatheringplacebrewing.com

https://www.libertygatheringplace.com

And I could go on and on.....


If I can come up with a unique name or two or three.... DECOPOLIS,  Discovitorium,  FableRealm (although there is now a Fable Realm Farms... should I sue?) etc. surely those with as deep a pockets as this park has they could come up with something more unique or not get upset after the fact that it's so common.  If I chose a common name that dozens of other similar businesses used (though again I don't see this coffee shop in another city being confused for this large park) I can't see how I could be upset by someone else using it. Now if someone uses DECOPOLIS or Discovitorium... in a similar venture, I will be all over them. But I intentionally came up with those names because they are unique.  I invented the word Discovitorium and after I came up with DECOPOLIS (meaning the Deco City) the only other DECOPOLIS I could find anywhere on earth was a hotel in Panama and an outdoor furniture place somewhere in Europe. Thats it. Not a hundred places all over the US.


 

You should probably talk to a lawyer.

https://yanglawoffices.com/state-trademark-vs-federal-trademark/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20two,and%20Trademark%20Office%20(USPTO).&text=However%2C%20registering%20a%20trademark%20federally%20offers%20much%20more%20legal%20protection.

[TheArtist]

You should probably talk to a lawyer.

https://yanglawoffices.com/state-trademark-vs-federal-trademark/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20two,and%20Trademark%20Office%20(USPTO).&text=However%2C%20registering%20a%20trademark%20federally%20offers%20much%20more%20legal%20protection.

Talking to lawyers is expensive!

Have spent literally thousands and thousands of dollars to get the trademarks and such that I already have, and not exactly sure what its really worth if you don't spend perhaps tens of thousands of dollars, or more, to get every possible "goods or services" taken care of.  And then you have to re-up each and every one after a few years. Just seems there should be a blanket thing for a completely unique "mark".


But back to the Gathering Place....


I had the idea a while back for a little cafe to be in the TulsaRama Town Square.  One of our logo's is the large moon out front and came up with La Luna Cafe.  It's being used in a few places around the world, one in Paris, one in another state.... But lets say I trademark it (say the others haven't done so).  Someone in Oklahoma opens a La Luna Cafe.  Can I sue them? Is it that I can only sue those who open a La Luna Cafe after I trademark it, not those who used the name before?

Can the Gathering Place only sue those who open a Gathering Place after they trademarked it, and not those who used it before?  Or can they sue all of them?

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Holy Joe's Gathering Place Ministries Inc. Broken Arrow OK

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ok/2112050666

God's Gathering Place Bartlesville

http://godsgatheringplace.org/

The Vault Art Space and Gathering Place 111 East Paul, Suite 2 Pauls Valley, OK 73075

https://www.thevaultpaulsvalley.com/

[swake]

Holy Joe's Gathering Place Ministries Inc. Broken Arrow OK

Holy Joe's sound like some real party people. I'd like to meet them.

[tulsabug]

From what I gather the coffee shop did exist before the Gathering Place did/chose its name. But don't know for sure.  Also, the Gathering Place is actually a pretty common name used by dozens of businesses all over the US, including other coffee shops in other states.



I would really like to know more about trademark law.  Every time I ask questions nobody seems to either understand what I am asking or know the answers.

I wanted to somehow trademark the word DECOPOLIS in the US but was advised to do it as a "Gift Shop selling books, toys, t-shirts, etc."  But I was like... So does that mean someone else could use or trademark DECOPOLIS as say a Coffee Shop, or a shoe store, or an art gallery, a software company? And if I wanted to prevent that I would have to spend the money and time to trademark every possible use etc.?

Aren't words like Xerox, Velcro, Gucci or Kleenex trademarked? And wouldn't I get in trouble using them in any retail manner or on any product (Gucci Art Gallery, Velcro Rock Climbing Gym, etc. lol? How do those get such a broad trademark but I can't do the same for say Discovitorium (a word I created and googled to see whether anyone had ever used it, nobody had anywhere) but yet when I talk to local trademark lawyers they can't seem to give me the same answer of wanting me to trademark it as a specific product or gift shop or something like that. I want DECOPOLIS and Discovitorium to be "brands" with the same broad trademark protections that those examples I gave. But I just get blank stares and they go back to the usual answers lol.

Am I crazy for what I am wanting or what's going on? lol

I'm not a lawyer but I've had a lot of first-hand experience so use that as you will:
1) Copyright and Trademark law is obnoxiously vague in some areas and specific in others and both are then shaped by court precedent so pretty much like all laws.
2) You would have to trademark DECOPOLIS in every single classification you would want to hold the rights to it in. So could someone start a coffee shop called DECOPOLIS if your trademark only was for a gift shop? Yes. Could you sue them even though you didn't have a trademark in the classification as a trademark dilution suit? Yes. Would you win? Nothing is guaranteed. The World Wildlife Fund sued the World Wrestling Federation as both were going by WWF and won. I'm pretty sure their trademarks didn't overlap but when it's a popular brand dilution cases are easier to prove. Be warned - the more classifications you have your trademark in the more you have to protect. If you fail to protect your trademark you can lose it. In fact if you waited too long to do so you could also lose it. The Gathering Place pretty much had to sic the lawyers as soon as they found out about the coffee shop. The other Gathering Places (as mentioned - there are a lot) aren't bumping in to the park's trademark and also aren't just calling themselves "The Gathering Place".
3) When a trademark is a nonsense word like Xerox, it's easier to protect in court unlike a place calling themselves a generic name like Best Buy (which, ironically, is not trademarked despite Best Buy trying repeatedly and failing).  No one can say if you'd have an issue getting a trademark on DECOPOLIS but if you did it would probably not be worth the money to extend the trademark past the gift shop classification. There are other Decopolis businesses outside of the US but I doubt you'd ever have to worry about them (or them you). The main thing you need to worry about is someone else in Oklahoma starting another DECOPOLIS no matter what kind of business it is. That being said usually getting a fictitious name certificate in Tulsa and a state Trademark with the Secretary of State would be probably be adequate to protect you there. Those would also help if someone else tried to trademark DECOPOLIS federally in that you could file an opposition with some teeth.
4) If you want DECOPOLIS and Discovitorium to both be brands you need to trademark them both in their respective classifications to be safe. If you want broad trademark protection you would need to get them in every classification you can imagine and want to pay for. Look up any major brand and you'll see they often will have a trademark in areas that make no sense like pet stores and gardening centers when they don't do anything like that. For what you want it's probably not worth the money.
5) Also - neat fact - you can put TM behind your brand names without actually owning any trademarks to them and often this will scare off most people legally.
Feel free to shoot me a pm if you want any more non-legally binding answers. 

[TheArtist]

I'm not a lawyer but I've had a lot of first-hand experience so use that as you will:
1) Copyright and Trademark law is obnoxiously vague in some areas and specific in others and both are then shaped by court precedent so pretty much like all laws.
2) You would have to trademark DECOPOLIS in every single classification you would want to hold the rights to it in. So could someone start a coffee shop called DECOPOLIS if your trademark only was for a gift shop? Yes. Could you sue them even though you didn't have a trademark in the classification as a trademark dilution suit? Yes. Would you win? Nothing is guaranteed. The World Wildlife Fund sued the World Wrestling Federation as both were going by WWF and won. I'm pretty sure their trademarks didn't overlap but when it's a popular brand dilution cases are easier to prove. Be warned - the more classifications you have your trademark in the more you have to protect. If you fail to protect your trademark you can lose it. In fact if you waited too long to do so you could also lose it. The Gathering Place pretty much had to sic the lawyers as soon as they found out about the coffee shop. The other Gathering Places (as mentioned - there are a lot) aren't bumping in to the park's trademark and also aren't just calling themselves "The Gathering Place".
3) When a trademark is a nonsense word like Xerox, it's easier to protect in court unlike a place calling themselves a generic name like Best Buy (which, ironically, is not trademarked despite Best Buy trying repeatedly and failing).  No one can say if you'd have an issue getting a trademark on DECOPOLIS but if you did it would probably not be worth the money to extend the trademark past the gift shop classification. There are other Decopolis businesses outside of the US but I doubt you'd ever have to worry about them (or them you). The main thing you need to worry about is someone else in Oklahoma starting another DECOPOLIS no matter what kind of business it is. That being said usually getting a fictitious name certificate in Tulsa and a state Trademark with the Secretary of State would be probably be adequate to protect you there. Those would also help if someone else tried to trademark DECOPOLIS federally in that you could file an opposition with some teeth.
4) If you want DECOPOLIS and Discovitorium to both be brands you need to trademark them both in their respective classifications to be safe. If you want broad trademark protection you would need to get them in every classification you can imagine and want to pay for. Look up any major brand and you'll see they often will have a trademark in areas that make no sense like pet stores and gardening centers when they don't do anything like that. For what you want it's probably not worth the money.
5) Also - neat fact - you can put TM behind your brand names without actually owning any trademarks to them and often this will scare off most people legally.
Feel free to shoot me a pm if you want any more non-legally binding answers. 

Great info. Pretty much what I have already ascertained. But good to hear it non-legally verified nonetheless lol.  Thanks!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Holy Joe's Gathering Place Ministries Inc. Broken Arrow OK

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ok/2112050666

God's Gathering Place Bartlesville

http://godsgatheringplace.org/

The Vault Art Space and Gathering Place 111 East Paul, Suite 2 Pauls Valley, OK 73075

https://www.thevaultpaulsvalley.com/

I think Holy Joe's is kinda gone now.   We go by there quite a bit visiting and have seen no action there for at least a couple years - at widely different times of week and day.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I think Holy Joe's is kinda gone now.   We go by there quite a bit visiting and have seen no action there for at least a couple years - at widely different times of week and day.

I went back and looked at the site and it's listed as inactive IIRC.

Tulsabug put together a good explanation, and it kind of goes with the way I understand Xerox, Velcro, and Kleenex. While they are brand names, they are also used as a reference to similar products. Xerox had the market on copiers back in the 60's, and as other companies started developing their own copiers, people just said "do you have a Xerox I can use?" instead of copy machine and it became part of our language. Same for Velcro. Velcro is the name for a company that created hook and loop fastening material and is still sold under that name, but there are other companies that make a similar material. If you go to the store to get some, do you ask "Where are your hook and loop fasteners?" or "Where is your Velcro?"

Back to the Gathering Place issue, personally I think it's a bad lawsuit. I'm just curious as to what kind of damages a small  2500 sqft coffee shop 100 miles away can inflict on a massive public park? I realized there are a lot of stupid people out there, but if you are trying to find the park in Tulsa and you get confused by a coffee shop in Shawnee, you shouldn't be operating a computer or smartphone.

[SXSW]

Looks like they settled

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/gatheringplace/gathering-place-shawnee-coffee-shop-settle-dispute-over-use-of-name/article_c706d9e6-253b-11ec-b638-ab2524801555.html