Evans Fintube Brownfield Site

[ComeOnBenjals]

Interesting insight... might make sense for a soccer stadium... have a little district with the BMX next door.

Not really sure I understand the cultural hub idea, seems like it could be pretty vague at this point.

Sidenote: The amount of differences from the picture shown in the thread (circa 2016) to now is stunning. Tulsa is already 2-3x more dense 

[LandArchPoke]

Interesting insight... might make sense for a soccer stadium... have a little district with the BMX next door.

Not really sure I understand the cultural hub idea, seems like it could be pretty vague at this point.

Sidenote: The amount of differences from the picture shown in the thread (circa 2016) to now is stunning. Tulsa is already 2-3x more dense 

North Tulsa doesn't need another stadium. At some point we've got to start listening, especially for what developments occur on city owned land. We've got to be more conscience on what happens within Greenwood and this is within the boundaries of that neighborhood. There's also no reason to tear down the building just to replace it with surface parking surrounding it.

The cultural hub just means that there is going to be a variety of spaces (co-working, food start up spaces, artist space, incubator spaces, etc.) and the uses are broken out within the proposal. The differences are pretty stark between the two proposals. That's just the first part of that developer's plan, after the historical building is finished then the land around the building would be turned into other mixed-use developments (hotel, residential, additional retail, etc.).

It's either give a local black developer a chance to build something that could start the redevelopment of Greenwood and be a centralized space for black businesses, etc. or ignore what everyone in that community has been asking for going on decades now and build another stadium, by a predominantly white development group, that can go anywhere in town. It's not like this is the only space that a soccer stadium could be built, but this is one of the few sites that could act as a large catalyst for North Tulsa/Greenwood.

[SXSW]

I'm interested to hear more about the cultural hub portion, as in what that actually entails.  I've always thought those old warehouse buildings would be a great science and industry museum.

[brettakins]

https://tulsaworld.com/news/city-selects-developer-for-evans-fintube-property-project-includes-saving-oklahoma-iron-works-building/article_a6f4dda2-cfd0-11ec-b6ef-9705302b2241.amp.html

The Oklahoma Iron Works Building on the 22-acre Evans-Fintube property north of downtown will be saved after all.

The city has selected Be Good Development Partners and J.E. Dunn to develop the southern half of the land, and the first step in that process will be to reclaim and reimagine the historic building.

In addition, plans call for a skyscraper up to 42 stories tall, the first skyscraper with more than 40 floors that would be built in Tulsa since the Cityplex Central Tower in 1979 and the first downtown since the BOK Tower in 1976.

"We are looking at retail, we are looking at some dining, a brewery, makerspace and studio space as well as office and co-working space," said Franchell Abdalla, who is leading the development group, called Team Alchemy.

The Tulsa Authority for Economic Opportunity began a search for Evans-Fintube development teams about a year ago and announced the two finalists in February. The city owns the property

[SXSW]

I've always thought something like the City Museum in St Louis would be a great use for the Iron Works building.  Excited to see what they come up with and glad it will be preserved

[DowntownDan]

There's no way that tower gets built. Separated from anything by two highways and train tracks. Half  the tower would be parking garage, and I'm not sure what tenants are in need of that much space. Housing in a tower like that would have to be expensive and luxury. Seems very impractical considering the current stagnation of our high end economy. Battery factories and iced tea sugar water assembly lines don't need vertical space near downtown.

[SXSW]

There's no way that tower gets built. Separated from anything by two highways and train tracks. Half  the tower would be parking garage, and I'm not sure what tenants are in need of that much space. Housing in a tower like that would have to be expensive and luxury. Seems very impractical considering the current stagnation of our high end economy. Battery factories and iced tea sugar water assembly lines don't need vertical space near downtown.

Agree let's get some new companies in the WPX tower first.  They will have their hands full with the Iron Works building and need to stay focused on that.

[LandArchPoke]

There's no way that tower gets built. Separated from anything by two highways and train tracks. Half  the tower would be parking garage, and I'm not sure what tenants are in need of that much space. Housing in a tower like that would have to be expensive and luxury. Seems very impractical considering the current stagnation of our high end economy. Battery factories and iced tea sugar water assembly lines don't need vertical space near downtown.

I'd have to disagree with you there - The View is leasing up at record pace and it's one of the most expensive properties in town. It's a few hundred feet from this site.

The Watco line is likely going to be purchased and moved as part of this development and likely some pedestrian or road/pedestrian connection will be built between OSU and the site. Crutchfield is under going a quite redevelopment that hasn't gotten much attention.

I'm an advocate for removing the highway, both 75 & 244 and it's been gaining significant traction to be studied further.

There's a lot of companies who are interested in opening offices in Greenwood - you just need a developer and broker who will actually take the time to reach out to people outside of Tulsa or return phone calls/email (looking at the broker of 21 Greenwood). I think people underestimate the significance of the name now. More hotels are needed downtown and there's several brands looking at Greenwood specifically because of the long-term tourism draw and significance of the area.

The tower would not be 100% office, it's a mixture of office (about the size of 21 Greenwood), residential, and hotel. Basically imagine taking The View, 21 Greenwood, and the Holiday Inn next door and stacking them. The total square feet of uses in the tower isn't unsupportable.

There's also a lot of capital this project can get that any other site in Tulsa outside of Greenwood wouldn't be able to attract nationally. They talked about it in the community meeting. JEDunn Capital talked about specific minority funds, one of which they manage - that have hundreds of millions in capital to deploy. JPMorgan Chase has a significant amount of loan/capital funds reserved for minority lead development projects they established within the last 24 months, they aren't the only bank either with programs like this. There's capital nationally too that would be interested in the story of developing a site in Greenwood with a black led development team. Outside of that too this site is eligible for New Market Tax Credits which is a huge advantage to being able to finance and build something of bigger scale. The demand doesn't end just because you cross 244 a couple hundred feet, the connectivity issues of the site can be solved too. The city has already said the TIF allocation/capacity for this site will be in excess of $30 million, that can do a lot to solving the infrastructure issues.  

Agree let's get some new companies in the WPX tower first.  They will have their hands full with the Iron Works building and need to stay focused on that.

Disagree - Santa Fe Square is pretty much 100% leased. Do you really think in 3-4 years we won't need more new office space?

WPX has a lease now, 21 Greenwood as well. Frankly I blame both the brokerage teams on the poor lease up of both those assets.

It's possible to do more than one thing at a time... there's a lot of firms that'd be interested in this site and not WPX, purely for the narrative behind the project.

[LandArchPoke]

Also, if people want to see what other redevelopment is going on in this area:

StreetCred by TYPROS is going on this weekend. Saturday they are doing a pop-up market from 11-5pm in the large brick warehouse at 65 N Madison (that property across 75 from Evans) and will have food trucks, live artist murals, and bands through out the day. Friday night they are doing a movie night inside the building as well and will have food trucks out as well. That will be from 6-9 pm Friday.

That site is planned to be redeveloped in the next few years, they are showcasing some possibilities of what it could be in the future. The owner of that site also has a significant stake in about 50%+ of properties in that area east of 75 and west of Utica that have been quietly renovated and restored.

Event Details:
https://allevents.in/tulsa/typros-street-cred-outside-the-loop/200022351840313?ref=cityhome

[DowntownDan]

I'd have to disagree with you there - The View is leasing up at record pace and it's one of the most expensive properties in town. It's a few hundred feet from this site.

The Watco line is likely going to be purchased and moved as part of this development and likely some pedestrian or road/pedestrian connection will be built between OSU and the site. Crutchfield is under going a quite redevelopment that hasn't gotten much attention.

I'm an advocate for removing the highway, both 75 & 244 and it's been gaining significant traction to be studied further.

There's a lot of companies who are interested in opening offices in Greenwood - you just need a developer and broker who will actually take the time to reach out to people outside of Tulsa or return phone calls/email (looking at the broker of 21 Greenwood). I think people underestimate the significance of the name now. More hotels are needed downtown and there's several brands looking at Greenwood specifically because of the long-term tourism draw and significance of the area.

The tower would not be 100% office, it's a mixture of office (about the size of 21 Greenwood), residential, and hotel. Basically imagine taking The View, 21 Greenwood, and the Holiday Inn next door and stacking them. The total square feet of uses in the tower isn't unsupportable.

There's also a lot of capital this project can get that any other site in Tulsa outside of Greenwood wouldn't be able to attract nationally. They talked about it in the community meeting. JEDunn Capital talked about specific minority funds, one of which they manage - that have hundreds of millions in capital to deploy. JPMorgan Chase has a significant amount of loan/capital funds reserved for minority lead development projects they established within the last 24 months, they aren't the only bank either with programs like this. There's capital nationally too that would be interested in the story of developing a site in Greenwood with a black led development team. Outside of that too this site is eligible for New Market Tax Credits which is a huge advantage to being able to finance and build something of bigger scale. The demand doesn't end just because you cross 244 a couple hundred feet, the connectivity issues of the site can be solved too. The city has already said the TIF allocation/capacity for this site will be in excess of $30 million, that can do a lot to solving the infrastructure issues.  

Disagree - Santa Fe Square is pretty much 100% leased. Do you really think in 3-4 years we won't need more new office space?

WPX has a lease now, 21 Greenwood as well. Frankly I blame both the brokerage teams on the poor lease up of both those assets.

It's possible to do more than one thing at a time... there's a lot of firms that'd be interested in this site and not WPX, purely for the narrative behind the project.

I appreciate your optimism and hope you're right. I also support removal, at least of 244 in the northern leg of the IDL. That would help tremendously connecting it to ONEOK Field, the East Village, and the Arts District. Pretty underpasses won't do the job. I also should clarify that I'm not against high end residential if there is a market for it, but I think the Greenwood neighbors are demanding that housing be affordable. A high end high rise residence would be gentrification almost by definition. The rendering is impressive and hope it works out, especially if we can finally rid ourselves of the northern IDL.

[Jake]

Welp

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pair-of-development-partners-drop-out-of-evans-fintube-project-north-of-downtown/article_0dc8767e-a258-11ed-84ab-afb6d28922bd.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

[SXSW]

Welp

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pair-of-development-partners-drop-out-of-evans-fintube-project-north-of-downtown/article_0dc8767e-a258-11ed-84ab-afb6d28922bd.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

This is a challenging project to pull off for even the most experienced development teams, not sure how they can proceed without the primary equity partners?  Including the pie-in-the-sky 42 story tower was already eyebrow-raising.  I saw someone mention on another site that this could be a good place for a film/movie soundstage and think something like that, similar to what OKC has in Prairie Surf Studio, would be a great use for this building.  If I were Be Good Development I would be calling Rachel Cannon and getting her up to Tulsa next week.

[Hoss]

Removing 244 on the north segment of the IDL is a pipe dream.  The traction it has is minimal at best.  I'm not a proponent or opponent of either outcome here, but I *am* a realist.  The north leg is too convenient for both regular automotive drivers and commercial transport.  It would be expensive to fight.  I'll be interested to watch the fight if it materializes.

[LandArchPoke]

Removing 244 on the north segment of the IDL is a pipe dream.  The traction it has is minimal at best.  I'm not a proponent or opponent of either outcome here, but I *am* a realist.  The north leg is too convenient for both regular automotive drivers and commercial transport.  It would be expensive to fight.  I'll be interested to watch the fight if it materializes.

Well it has already materialized for more than a year. You have multiple political leaders calling for it's removal and a supportive federal government to ideas like this. It's happening in other major cities. Look at Syracuse for I-81 - I would argue I-81 is more critical to regional travel than I-244 could ever be in Tulsa. Rochester is another example, Detroit is doing a massive removal of part of the downtown 'loop' they had, and others are working on projects.

Rep. Goodwin has been working extensively on this and has really done a lot of great things to push it forward. Councilor Hall-Harper is a big supporter of getting rid of the highway. Karen Keith has also voiced support that something needs to happen. Multiple other councilors are in full support of removing it too. The only local elected leadership apprehensive to it is the mayor and INCOG - both of whom are pushing the idea that it should be tunneled (a dumb idea) instead of removed and replaced with the rebuilding of the historic street-grid.

Once the Gilcrease is finished I-244 is even more obsolete than it is now. If you look at the federal governments classifications of freight routes it's the least critical freight route in the Tulsa MSA - hardly a barrier to removing it. It's only convenient for auto drivers that are regional (say going from east Tulsa to Stillwater or other east-west trips). Less than 20% of the users of 244 are using it to access downtown or surrounding neighborhoods. Why can't those drivers take an extra 2-3 minutes and use the Gilcrease when it's finished instead?  Or they could take I-44 and the southwest portion of the Gilcrease that is open - just would take a few more minutes. I-244 is not needed and it comes at the expensive of everyone in the city because taking up that valuable land with non-tax paying infrastructure is bad for city finances. It's also bad for many social reasons and what I-244 did to Greenwood/North Tulsa and other neighborhoods. Imagine the growth Kendall Whittier could have north if the freeway didn't cut it in half. Crosbie Heights/Owen Park same thing.

[LandArchPoke]

This is a challenging project to pull off for even the most experienced development teams, not sure how they can proceed without the primary equity partners?  Including the pie-in-the-sky 42 story tower was already eyebrow-raising.  I saw someone mention on another site that this could be a good place for a film/movie soundstage and think something like that, similar to what OKC has in Prairie Surf Studio, would be a great use for this building.  If I were Be Good Development I would be calling Rachel Cannon and getting her up to Tulsa next week.

The tower was never envisioned to be part of Phase 1 of the development. It was somewhat aspirational/future leaning.

What development sites in Tulsa could facilitate a 200,000 sq. ft. office tenant right now in Class A space? You could count them on one hand - and many of them are not Class A like the WPX building that a tenant would want - they're spaces like the Cimarex building that is butt ugly and cheap for Class A. How do we expect to ever be competitive for corporate relocations or expansions if we can't even get a half dozen sites build to suit ready for office tenants?

If you say are scouting Omaha, Des Moines, OKC, and Tulsa for a project - all three of those would give you a half dozen to a dozen sites that are essentially permit ready for office space of that size or bigger. It's really shocking how far behind the ball Tulsa is in that regard and some of that falls on the development community. There's such a small handful of office developers and they gate keep that sector. All that does is hold Tulsa back.

This would be a perfect site to leave open for a corporate relocation/expansion and getting to say they are helping to start the rebuilding of the Greenwood neighborhood, etc. Even for local companies it has plenty of story and location to be appealing enough to consider if they wanted to upgrade their office space similar to H&P and others have been doing. While 42 stories probably wouldn't ever happen, but a 15-25 story building with an anchor office tenant and hotel as part of a mixed-use 'tower' isn't unreasonable to consider feasible in the future.