"If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."

[Teatownclown]

I think the Green Party is the closest current representation of progressive political policy.

Conservative is to Liberal as Tea Party is to Green Party.

You are demented....I don't label. Except when it involves ....

It's so obvious what you stand for. I prefer to be fluid and flexible.

[Teatownclown]

For "the most pathetic people on the planet" ....thought we'd continue today's teachings:

[Gaspar]

You are demented....I don't label. Except when it involves ....

It's so obvious what you stand for. I prefer to be fluid and flexible.

What do I stand for?

[nathanm]

Zimmerman has problems with his story.  Now a video has surfaced of him getting out of the police car in which there's no visible evidence that he was even remotely injured.  Granted, it's hard to tell from surveillance video, but with the "severity" of injuries claimed (broken nose, scrapes and blood on the back of the head) it's not readily apparent.  Should we assume they lost the evidentiary photos most PD's would have shot?

Zimmerman's side of the story looks less credible at this point.  Due to the grainy nature of the video I'd still reserve complete damnation for Zimmerman without seeing clear photos of his alleged injuries or wounds.

That was pretty much my exact reaction when I saw the video last night. Apparently it's clearer on TV, but I haven't seen it for myself except on YouTube (and ABC's site)

As far as wevus and I arguing that all such cases should go to trial, it's not just one or two failures. I haven't looked into Oklahoma, but there have been several recent cases in Florida where the SYG law appears to have been abused. Maybe this isn't the case in Oklahoma, but in Florida prosecutors seem to pretty much throw up their hands when self defense is claimed and there's absolutely clear evidence that it wasn't. The Martin case seems to be in a class of its own, but it's not the only instance of apparent SYG abuse.

[RecycleMichael]

This was the Progressive ERA of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era

The Progressive Era in the United States was a period of social activism and political reform that flourished from the 1840s to the 1920s. One main goal of the Progressive movement was purification of government, as Progressives tried to eliminate corruption by exposing and undercutting political machines and bosses. Many (but not all) Progressives supported prohibition in order to destroy the political power of local bosses based in saloons. At the same time, women's suffrage was promoted to bring a "purer" female vote into the arena. A second theme was achieving efficiency in every sector by identifying old ways that needed modernizing, and emphasizing scientific, medical and engineering solutions.

Many people led efforts to reform local government, public education, medicine, finance, insurance, industry, railroads, churches, and many other areas. Progressives transformed, professionalized and made "scientific" the social sciences, especially history, economics, and political science. In academic fields the day of the amateur author gave way to the research professor who published in the new scholarly journals and presses. The national political leaders included Theodore Roosevelt, Robert M. La Follette, Sr., Charles Evans Hughes and Herbert Hoover on the Republican side, and William Jennings Bryan, Woodrow Wilson and Al Smith on the Democratic side.

Initially the movement operated chiefly at local levels; later it expanded to state and national levels. Progressives drew support from the middle class, and supporters included many lawyers, teachers, physicians, ministers and business people. The Progressives strongly supported scientific methods as applied to economics, government, industry, finance, medicine, schooling, theology, education, and even the family. They closely followed advances underway at the time in Western Europe and adopted numerous policies, such as the banking laws which became the Federal Reserve System in 1914. They felt that old-fashioned ways meant waste and inefficiency, and eagerly sought out the "one best system".

This is the movement that is quietly sweeping the Democratic Party. Progressives came from both parties a hundred years ago, but so far in these days, it has only gained traction in the blue team.

[nathanm]

What do I stand for?

I stand for Marshall's and good tequila. I'll keep my seat for most everything else, thanks.

[Gaspar]

I stand for Marshall's and good tequila. I'll keep my seat for most everything else, thanks.

TTC likes to classify people as racist, because that's what diddles his fiddle. 

At least this thread gives him an outlet for his favorite pejorative term.

He can simply call anyone that offers a difference of opinion or the advocation of jurisprudence a racist.

It must be immensely satisfying.

[nathanm]

TTC likes to classify people as racist, because that's what diddles his fiddle. 

Calling people racist is silly. Most people probably aren't racist. They may do racist things or say racist things without realizing it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're a racist. Saying that someone is in fact a racist brings a person's state of mind into question, which is rarely helpful to a discussion and doesn't really matter anyway. What matters is that people stop saying and doing racist things, regardless of what their inner thoughts may or may not be.

[Conan71]

That was pretty much my exact reaction when I saw the video last night. Apparently it's clearer on TV, but I haven't seen it for myself except on YouTube (and ABC's site)

As far as wevus and I arguing that all such cases should go to trial, it's not just one or two failures. I haven't looked into Oklahoma, but there have been several recent cases in Florida where the SYG law appears to have been abused. Maybe this isn't the case in Oklahoma, but in Florida prosecutors seem to pretty much throw up their hands when self defense is claimed and there's absolutely clear evidence that it wasn't. The Martin case seems to be in a class of its own, but it's not the only instance of apparent SYG abuse.

Something about a baby and bath water comes to mind.  I'd go on to say more lives have been saved than unjustly ended with SYG laws.

Op-ed to follow, but it provides some very good facts.  One thing which sticks in my mind is the coincidental 23% reduction in violent crime in Florida from 2005 to 2010.  2005 is when SYG was enacted in Florida.  The author correctly points out that would not be a sole reason but a significant factor.

The "stand your ground" defense, established in 2005 by the Florida Legislature, works and is effective if applied properly. The law essentially provides that a person may use deadly force in self-defense when there's reasonable belief of a deadly threat, and without an obligation to retreat first.

Although it wasn't codified as a law until 2005 in Florida, as early as 1921 the U.S. Supreme Court established that a man or woman has no duty to retreat where there is an imminent fear of death or bodily harm. Justice Oliver Wendell Homes Jr. wrote that "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife."

Some individuals argue that the "stand your ground" defense has opened the door to a free-for-all shooting gallery. This is simply not true. Although the number of justifiable homicides in Florida has more than doubled since "stand your ground" was passed in 2005, the rate of violent crime in the state deceased by 23% from 2005 to 2010, according to FBI statistics. This is not to say that the "stand your ground" law in itself caused the decrease, but it certainly was a factor.

The main issue is not the law itself, but the way it is applied. The law is designed to protect innocent victims. It does not have any provision to protect original aggressors.

Since the Trayvon Martin shooting put "stand your ground" in the spotlight, the general public has misunderstood the law, believing that someone can be chased down and killed without repercussions. The specific facts and evidence that led police to apply the doctrine in the Martin case are unknown right now. The solution is better training for the police and more transparent investigations so the public can understand why and when the doctrine is applied.

We as citizens do not know everything the police use to come to the conclusion that a case involved self-defense. As such, we are led by the mainstream news media, which might not have a full understanding of the law and the specific evidence in every case. Education is key; a lynch mob mentality will not solve misconceptions about the law.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/story/2012-03-26/stand-your-ground-police/53795024/1

[nathanm]

Something about a baby and bath water comes to mind.

The same thing could be said about enacting an SYG law.

[Conan71]

The same thing could be said about enacting an SYG law.

Not at all.  SYG was devised as a way to better define what rights you have to defend yourself as a deterrent to violent crime.  It's not designed as a way for you to shoot anyone you please, claim self-defense and get off free as a jay bird.

One last time, just for you and your thick-skulled compatriot Wevus:

PD's and DA's still review every homicide.  If they determine the shooting was not justified as a case of self-defense, they give it to a jury of the person's peers and allow them to decide.  There is not and has never been any such thing as an "automatic trial" in our country.  Every crime is subject to review prior to charges being filed.  Charges are not filed if a case lacks merit, why should they be?  

It's not perfect but this is how our justice system works and fortunately is one of the ways it differs from countries like Iran or Afghanistan.

[Red Arrow]

This is the movement that is quietly sweeping the Democratic Party. Progressives came from both parties a hundred years ago, but so far in these days, it has only gained traction in the blue team.

Not there yet though.

[nathanm]

Not at all.  SYG was devised as a way to better define what rights you have to defend yourself as a deterrent to violent crime.  It's not designed as a way for you to shoot anyone you please, claim self-defense and get off free as a jay bird.

That is not its design intent, but that does seem to have already happened in several cases in Florida.

And yes, I think the baby/bathwater pithiness applies equally. On the one hand, it makes it easier on people whose situation really does fall under the umbrella of self defense. On the other, it makes it easier for people to unnecessarily kill other people and get away with it.

That's not even my fundamental objection, though. My fundamental objection is that people should, whenever possible, resolve a situation without killing another human being. A too broad SYG law eliminates the incentive to not kill people whenever possible. I'm not really OK with that. As far as your complaints about a trial, again, I don't really give a flying love about somebody having to deal with the hassle of a trial when the other half of the tango is dead. Get some effing perspective. Cry me a bucking river. Seriously.

It's pretty simple. If you don't want the hassle, don't kill people. If you have to, so be it. You shouldn't be punished for that. A trial is not punishment, it is adjudication. We seem to have forgotten that in this day and age of extensive police investigations. Besides, it's better for the shooter, too, because they can know with absolute certainty that they cannot be prosecuted in the future. There is no SoL on murder (in most, if not all, states)

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is the movement that is quietly sweeping the Democratic Party. Progressives came from both parties a hundred years ago, but so far in these days, it has only gained traction in the blue team.

One can only hope.  There were a few "minutes" in the lat '60s and '70s when some progress was made, but then the Regressives took over again in the '80s - and gave us the "Great Regression".  Only now are we starting to see the first faint glimmers of progress.

[Teatownclown]

What do I stand for?

The pledge of allegiance?

I'm with Nate on this.... especially the beer and tequila part!

I started another thread for SYG...this one's for exposure.

BTW Michael, today's progressive movement is all about doing the responsible thing. And it's the opposite of obstructionism....