Tulsa Public Schools Spending

[AquaMan]

If you are spending that "on the product" rather than in the institution that produces the product. How many more levels shall we create?  

I suppose you see no fault in the population of 200K administrators and mid-managers to oversee teaching Johnny how to read?

Liberals want progressive solutions to problems, right?  Why not with education?   Why do they work so hard to protect the increased funding of the status quo?

Why do they attack when people propose change over just spending?  

Why are they so quick to blame the kids?

Read back through this thread and see who is defending the education of the children vs who is defending the institution.

I see your software gave you a new word, "they". Powerful word, that.

Would you say that money spent on institution does not have a direct influence on money spent on product? Or that in most instances they are one and the same? You would if you're being honest and not doctrinaire.

When Chrysler spent tons of money, (some of it government $) on R&D to create a new generation of X cars, mini-vans and performance vehicles it was pretty hard to deny the resulting success. It also increased dramatically the amount spent on the institution and the manufacture of the product. 

[Gaspar]

Would you say that money spent on institution does not have a direct influence on money spent on product? Or that in most instances they are one and the same? You would if you're being honest and not doctrinaire.

I like where you are now headed with this.  Why don't we explore increases in per-student spending and see if we can establish a correlation?

Do you want to go there? 

[AquaMan]

Not if you do.

I wouldn't find that helpful anyway. You like to look at everything as business. So, you know that focusing on per unit cost can be deceiving. For instance, the cost of a Corvette in 1973 was around $5500. GM probably sold 15,000 of them. By 1980 the cost of a Corvette with primarily style changes in the previous 7 years had grown to nearly $20,000 as GM decided to sell fewer units at much larger margins. In fact they did that across the product line. That yielded an increase in per unit cost but a great bottom line increase as well.

Car manufacturers at least have a comparable measure of their success each year....net profit. In education the criteria for success are not that easily pinned down. They are primarily testing, graduation rates and successful college applications. All suspect as meaningful or even trustworthy.

[Gaspar]

Not if you do.
In education the criteria for success are not that easily pinned down. They are primarily testing, graduation rates and successful college applications. All suspect as meaningful or even trustworthy.

LOL!  Excellent job in pre-qualifiying the debate!

So, we can't use testing, graduation, or college applications as measure of success.  

What do you suppose we use as a meaningful indicator?

This should be rich.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That would be fine if there was evidence of a correlation, however there is not.  California, Nevada, New Mexico, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Hawaii, and DC all spend far more than we do, and produce lower performance.  Then there are states like Utah and Idaho that spend far less and perform unbelievably higher. http://www.census.gov/govs/school/

And Idaho is one of those where they have just started (2008-2009) to do major cuts in their education spending, so the results are likely to take at least a few years to filter through.  But they are in a race to the bottom and will get there.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/may/31/idaho-ranks-low-falling-school-spending/

[heironymouspasparagus]

LOL!  Excellent job in pre-qualifiying the debate!

So, we can't use testing, graduation, or college applications as measure of success.  

What do you suppose we use as a meaningful indicator?

This should be rich.

College graduation or vo-tech graduation, and employment with accompanying self-sufficiency are the only valid measures of success.

[AquaMan]

LOL!  Excellent job in pre-qualifiying the debate!

So, we can't use testing, graduation, or college applications as measure of success.  

What do you suppose we use as a meaningful indicator?

This should be rich.

Its not that reliable measures are not available.

Its that we can't agree on one any more than we can all agree on anything else. Texas considers it a success if students pass a course on Creationism. Utah may be happy with acceptance of Mormons as Christians. Kansas may only find home schoolers who think dinosaurs walked with humans as success. Idaho may think that being able to break down a rifle and re-assemble it in 10 seconds is success. And in Oklahoma it may be acceptance of personhood beginning at two weeks before conception as successful, meaningful education.

And in some people's world, rich, is what is considered a meaningful indicator of education.

Not to be too glib...I have to go back to work now and prove the value of my education, though my wife is becoming more and more suspicious of that each paycheck.

[RecycleMichael]

So, we can't use testing, graduation, or college applications as measure of success.

You can't be that simple.

All testing does is capture a student's snapshot in time.

Let's take a school that has 50% of the students passing the test in 3rd grade and 75% of the kids passing the test next year as 4th graders. Compare that to a school where 90% of the kids pass the test as 3rd graders and then having 90% of the kids pass the test as a 4th grader.

Which teacher did the better job? According to your simple answer, the second teacher did a better job because more of her kids passed the test.

What is better evaluation is what TPS has starting doing.
http://www8.tulsaschools.org/4_About_District/academic_performance_main.asp

[Gaspar]

This has gotten interesting.  

Apparently the argument has now morphed.  Our schools are not failing, it's just that we are testing the wrong things.  How stupid of me!

They need an ever increasing budget to test the right things. . .right? . . .and additional layers of administration and complexity assure that.

Just because Johnny can't get into college, or tell you how many States there are, or who the first president was, or how to calculate change for a dollar does not mean he was failed by his teachers.  It means that he was just tested incorrectly or at the wrong time.

Come on!  People have been educating children for thousands of years.  Sure, methods of teaching have changed, but at the end of the day, the child either knows that 2 + 2 = 4, or he does not.  Tinkering with the definition of "4" changes nothing.  

[Hoss]

My 2 cents as a non-parent?

We truly will not have change in public schools until the PARENTS GET MORE INVOLVED.  I'm not saying that you guys don't.  But overall as opposed to the past?  How many parents now are involved in PTA?  How many parents shoo off their children when they need real help with homework?

Remember, the teaching begins in the home.  I was never fortunate enough to have children.  I have, however, watched my younger brother bring up three incredibly smart and gifted children.  And it wasn't from letting them run wild and rampant after school or ignoring their teachers, either.

[Townsend]

My 2 cents as a non-parent?

We truly will not have change in public schools until the PARENTS GET MORE INVOLVED.  I'm not saying that you guys don't.  But overall as opposed to the past?  How many parents now are involved in PTA?  How many parents shoo off their children when they need real help with homework?

Remember, the teaching begins in the home.  I was never fortunate enough to have children.  I have, however, watched my younger brother bring up three incredibly smart and gifted children.  And it wasn't from letting them run wild and rampant after school or ignoring their teachers, either.

We've been told over and over by Jenks SE parents "the difference is the parents are involved".  We now live in Jenks SE district.

[heironymouspasparagus]

My 2 cents as a non-parent?

We truly will not have change in public schools until the PARENTS GET MORE INVOLVED.  I'm not saying that you guys don't.  But overall as opposed to the past?  How many parents now are involved in PTA?  How many parents shoo off their children when they need real help with homework?

Remember, the teaching begins in the home.  I was never fortunate enough to have children.  I have, however, watched my younger brother bring up three incredibly smart and gifted children.  And it wasn't from letting them run wild and rampant after school or ignoring their teachers, either.

Back on page one of this - that was one of my original comments - all the teachers I know have always said that is the biggest problem they face beyond the actual mechanics of having adequate tools available.

Lousy administration is usually a close second.

[heironymouspasparagus]

As for schools actually failing...well that is an ever changing spectrum that moves from one end to the other over time.  Heard last week that Nathan Hale is on to be taken over by the state.    It has obviously changed a lot over the years in spite of what appears to be at least some level of parental participation (not close enough to see if more or less than previous years) and a semi-active alumni association that does things from time to time for the school.

We have always had 25% drop out rate.  And parts of McGuffy's reader seemed a lot harder than what I had to study.  There appears to be an ongoing 'watering down' of curriculum.  Makes it tough to pass the end of school tests.

[TheArtist]

My 2 cents as a non-parent?

We truly will not have change in public schools until the PARENTS GET MORE INVOLVED.  I'm not saying that you guys don't.  But overall as opposed to the past?  How many parents now are involved in PTA?  How many parents shoo off their children when they need real help with homework?

Remember, the teaching begins in the home.  I was never fortunate enough to have children.  I have, however, watched my younger brother bring up three incredibly smart and gifted children.  And it wasn't from letting them run wild and rampant after school or ignoring their teachers, either.

Ok, so whats your plan to get these bad parents to be good parents?   Perhaps walk up to them and say "Hey you! yea you over there! be a good parent!"   That ought to do it.  Problem solved.  Right?   I can see them all scratching their heads and going "Oh?  Wow, thanks for telling me that, it had just never occurred to me."  "Gosh I am glad you were there to tell me I needed to be a good parent, I wouldn't have known to do that otherwise."

[Hoss]

Ok, so whats your plan to get these bad parents to be good parents?   Perhaps walk up to them and say "Hey you! yea you over there! be a good parent!"   That ought to do it.  Problem solved.  Right?

Never said I had a plan, William.  It's not my place to do so.  My SUGGESTION is that parents get more involved.  Do you have children?  I'm just curious.

Parenting should be like driving.  Take a course, get a license before you do it.  Although that's not realistic, I know I'm not the only who thinks that way.