Downtown stadium in the East End....

[TheArtist]

From what I can tell, none of the homes and the building you have posted there are in the East End? Are we talking about the same area?  There aren't really many big chunks of land left in the East End with the new smaller housing developments, church and parks, etc. that are purported to be going in over there, and once those get going there will be more to follow relatively soon pretty much wiping out a lot big enough for a stadium and parking in the East End.

[DowntownDan]

I don't see a soccer team being extraordinarily successful, and not enough really to justify a single purpose stadium downtown.  Would it be possible for the stadium to host a weekly high school football game, a "Game of the Week" sort of deal?  Semi-pro football?  That might give it better viability.  Outdoor concerts could happen there.  I'm just trying to think of things.  Building a stadium for a soccer team just seems incredibly risky.  If it doesn't work out, you have a useless stadium taking up space downtown. 

[TheArtist]

I don't see a soccer team being extraordinarily successful, and not enough really to justify a single purpose stadium downtown.  Would it be possible for the stadium to host a weekly high school football game, a "Game of the Week" sort of deal?  Semi-pro football?  That might give it better viability.  Outdoor concerts could happen there.  I'm just trying to think of things.  Building a stadium for a soccer team just seems incredibly risky.  If it doesn't work out, you have a useless stadium taking up space downtown. 

One perhaps forgets that with our growing Hispanic population whose sport is basically soccer "football", you might be suprised at how many people would attend. 

[TulsaRufnex]

From what I can tell, none of the homes and the building you have posted there are in the East End? Are we talking about the same area?  There aren't really many big chunks of land left in the East End with the new smaller housing developments, church and parks, etc. that are purported to be going in over there, and once those get going there will be more to follow relatively soon pretty much wiping out a lot big enough for a stadium and parking in the East End.

The three pics from my last post are from the Owen Park neighborhood.  The middle one is the house next door to me... wouldn't mind having somebody buy, then teardown to make way for a McMansion.... the other two could be renovated relatively cheaply and would be much more appropriate as "affordable housing" over the potentially expensive "conversion" of ugly buildings like the Nordham warehouses IMHO... Walkable to downtown?  Maybe not.  Scooter or bicycle friendly?  Yes.  Affordable?  Yes.  

All other pics are from the east end/east village south of 3rd Street... acres and acres of asphalt and eye-sore.

Artist... when you talk about how this is a logical "next step" for residential, I wonder if you're talking about the same area I've walked.... the area between Home Depot and 3rd Street.... because the differences between the Brady District and this area are enormous.  Which is why any idea for the East Village in past years has included an "anchor"... whether that be a stadium or a concert venue or a big box.... why would you put a park there when we already have a park by the Pearl District?  who's proposing a park there? and who's going to be paying for this "park"?

I'm simply asking:  Is there an "anchor" development being proposed for this area?... if so, who is paying for it?   is it being subsidized?  why would anyone who's walked the blocks and blocks of ugly surface parking and ugly buildings ever deem this area "historical" ("National Registry of Historic Warehouses" anyone?)  ...so it can be eligible for tax credits or state funds?  Really?  

It defies logic.

[TulsaRufnex]

With CUSA bringing their basketball tournament here again next year will their soccer tournament hosted by ONEOK Field be next?

As much as I'd like to see your idea come to fruition, TU has hosted the CUSA soccer tourney before at their stadium, which holds a little over 1k...

It's hard for me to see many reasons why the Drillers would be inclined to allow soccer games at their new ballpark... Frontier Field in Rochester, NY was built primarily for baseball, but also with soccer in mind...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Field  Oneok Park, sadly, was not.

Strangely enough, Oneok Park was designed by Populous (formerly HOK Sport), the same group that designed the new stadium for the Rochester Rhinos soccer team.  Let's just say the setting and resetting of Frontier Field for soccer and lacrosse became problematic....  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester_Rhinos_Stadium  http://www.bartonandloguidice.com/Services/SportsandRecreation/SportsandRecreationPortfolio/tabid/1003/Default.aspx

The Owen Park resident part of me has one perspective on downtown/Brady/Blue Dome/East End/East Village.... while the soccer fan in me has another...

Frankly, I'd want a pro soccer franchise to have:  

1.  A high profile venue.  (Sure, they could play at a high school stadium... and the WNBA Shock could play at the Mabee Center or UMAC, if you get my drift)
2.  The ability to sell corporate suites.
3.  A venue they largely control with "1st tenant" status.  (control over how concessions are handled, a nice cut of concessions sold, flexibility to allow for tailgate parties, ability to control dates so as not to be "bumped" if the mayor's daughter decides to hold her wedding reception there...  )
4.  As many revenue streams as possible--- i.e. parking proceeds, lucrative youth soccer tourneys, beer sales, etc etc... see also #2 and #3 above...
5.  A local ownership group with the financial wherewithal to execute a "decade plan," rather than repeat the failures of the handful of doomed semi-pro soccer teams we've had in the past.

If the county would offer these terms at the Fairgrounds, I bet I could sell somebody with $$$ on the idea... (maybe local, maybe not).

Beyond that, I wouldn't care where the stadium was located as long as the above five conditions were met.  As for future construction of a stadium, that option would depend on whether the owner(s) would be more interested in converting the horsetrack at the fairgrounds into tourney level soccer fields, or build a mixed-use development on the west bank, or a stadium in BA or Jenks, or a stadium somehow connected to the new fields by Mohawk, or a downtown stadium that could bookend the downtown ballpark.... etc, etc....

I didn't mention the Evans Fintube site because I believe that's a place where good ideas go to die (i.e. Oklahoma School of Visual & Performing Arts)  

[TulsaRufnex]

I don't see a soccer team being extraordinarily successful, and not enough really to justify a single purpose stadium downtown.  Would it be possible for the stadium to host a weekly high school football game, a "Game of the Week" sort of deal?  Semi-pro football?  That might give it better viability.  Outdoor concerts could happen there.  I'm just trying to think of things.  Building a stadium for a soccer team just seems incredibly risky.  If it doesn't work out, you have a useless stadium taking up space downtown.  

As long as the soccer franchise is treated as "first tenant," I believe the options to use the field for more than soccer are more likely and more desireable than the options at Oneok to use the field for more than baseball... FC Dallas Stadium is owned by the City of Frisco and has been used for quite a bit more than just soccer.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dallas_Stadium

[rdj]

As long as the soccer franchise is treated as "first tenant," I believe the options to use the field for more than soccer are more likely and more desireable than the options at Oneok to use the field for more than baseball... FC Dallas Stadium is owned by the City of Frisco and has been used for quite a bit more than just soccer.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dallas_Stadium

You forget the Drillers don't own OneOK Field.  The Tulsa Ballpark Authority does.  While not an expert on the lease, based on conversations I've had, I feel confident in saying it is in the works for OneOK Field to host soccer games.  I think the success of the AC Milan tourney here will help propel the idea of more soccer in Tulsa.

[TulsaRufnex]

I hope you're right.  Not sure what kind of tournament or exhibition game could be setup at that venue....

For years, I've believed that these fans deserved as much.....

[TheArtist]

The three pics from my last post are from the Owen Park neighborhood.  The middle one is the house next door to me... wouldn't mind having somebody buy, then teardown to make way for a McMansion.... the other two could be renovated relatively cheaply and would be much more appropriate as "affordable housing" over the potentially expensive "conversion" of ugly buildings like the Nordham warehouses IMHO... Walkable to downtown?  Maybe not.  Scooter or bicycle friendly?  Yes.  Affordable?  Yes.  

All other pics are from the east end/east village south of 3rd Street... acres and acres of asphalt and eye-sore.

Artist... when you talk about how this is a logical "next step" for residential, I wonder if you're talking about the same area I've walked.... the area between Home Depot and 3rd Street.... because the differences between the Brady District and this area are enormous.  Which is why any idea for the East Village in past years has included an "anchor"... whether that be a stadium or a concert venue or a big box.... why would you put a park there when we already have a park by the Pearl District?  who's proposing a park there? and who's going to be paying for this "park"?

I'm simply asking:  Is there an "anchor" development being proposed for this area?... if so, who is paying for it?   is it being subsidized?  why would anyone who's walked the blocks and blocks of ugly surface parking and ugly buildings ever deem this area "historical" ("National Registry of Historic Warehouses" anyone?)  ...so it can be eligible for tax credits or state funds?  Really?  

It defies logic.

Some of the developments I can point out right off the top of my head for the area include the Land Legacy park wich runs all the way from 2nd to 7th along Frankfort.  Fox's Urban 8, plus some other housing projects, will be near that to the north of the park, also the OU/TU med school which hopefully will need room to grow, and then to the south of the park will be the new All Souls Church.  The Bill White Chevrolet apartment/loft project will be underway this Fall to the west of the park.  Once these get underway I can see housing going all around this new park in short order.  And who knows, one anchor to the area could be Blakes Movie Theater project. 

[swake]

I think soccer would work here. It would do a lot better than the WNBA team that can't seem to win ANY games. But for a soccer specific stadium to make sense it would need a soccer complex around it for tournaments and leagues and that's not something that should be downtown.

There's land available down across the street from the MTSC soccer complex right on the river at 106th. Build a stadium there. There's a number of good sites for big soccer complexes. 71st and Riverside in the unfinished park area, the several blocks of empty land north of OSU Tulsa near downtown, across Elwood from Jones Airport.

If they are doing a 2025v2 push to have soccer be part of it, I think most would support it. Just not downtown.

[carltonplace]

Artist, Urban 8 is Freese not Fox, and I did not check spelling.

[TheArtist]

Artist, Urban 8 is Freese not Fox, and I did not check spelling.

My bad.  I lose track of all the different proposals and such on occasion lol.

[TulsaRufnex]

I think soccer would work here. It would do a lot better than the WNBA team that can't seem to win ANY games. But for a soccer specific stadium to make sense it would need a soccer complex around it for tournaments and leagues and that's not something that should be downtown.

There's land available down across the street from the MTSC soccer complex right on the river at 106th. Build a stadium there. There's a number of good sites for big soccer complexes. 71st and Riverside in the unfinished park area, the several blocks of empty land north of OSU Tulsa near downtown, across Elwood from Jones Airport.

If they are doing a 2025v2 push to have soccer be part of it, I think most would support it. Just not downtown.

"Just not downtown."   Why?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe that if tax dollars are being used to fund/finance, then IMHO the East Village area inside the IDL should evolve into it's own entertainment/business district that all Tulsans can enjoy... not just a publicly subsidized neighborhood enclave... from my grade school learnin', I was taught that the area inside the IDL of any city was intended for use as a "central business district," and I am not highly impressed by those who'd turn that area into their own little "microhood" playground.  It'd be different if this particular area of downtown had blocks of old row houses or brownstones just waiting to be re-habbed, ala Baltimore or Chicago, or if these ideas were to be funded without taxpayer assistance, but neither is currently the case.  If there's sufficient demand for urban housing inside the IDL, why the need for tax dollars?  There's a reason why the few old apt. buildings inside the IDL turned into skidrow Towerview-style eyesores in the first place--- ignore those facts at your peril.

As for pro soccer, there is no magic formula that would guarantee success or failure based on whether or not youth soccer fields are positioned directly next door to a stadium.... for Tulsa, a stadium could be located at the fairgrounds and that big parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack could be used for massive tailgate parties rather than conversion into soccer fields.... or the franchise could attempt to share the Drillers' downtown location at Oneok Park for 14 regular season home games while the team/operating group partners with the city to use and promote the new tournament ready soccer fields by Mohawk Park... or if the youth soccer fields were privately-owned by a certain individual, it may make financial sense for that stadium to be located in an area the owner controls, like what's going on in San Antonio....  http://www.morganswonderland.com/#  http://www.starsoccersa.com/    

Toronto has a downtown MLS stadium... Houston is building one... Vancouver wants one... Dallas (Frisco) and Kansas City have the suburban model....
More reading... from a Baltimore downtown stadium proposal dated December 2010...



The study in it's entirety can be viewed here... https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nmAM5H23oBMJ:www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/pdf/Baltimore%2520soccer%2520stadium%2520study.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGXHpc0bCBefOQYBn4rpwy-J5aCVcg-RE2HtlIxuMmgU7EgHLgSKIOSpaQrxPYSR4dpvjNsr6_s_MUq-W1wwN2WIJnFhTsS1y302uiXSZBRhW8UxQHB44lFNx5rSXJCQ71AgMa&sig=AHIEtbTYeEiL5eE3ksdk197qxOpnv4cJ8A

[swake]

I'm telling you with everything already planned in the East End area, there is no space for a stadium. A soccer stadium would need to be at least as large as Oneok and that's just not happening. There are three and maybe four housing projects, a medical school, a church, Tulsa Opera and a park all planned for that area. Land is already sold or under contract. It's done. In 18 months the East End, Village, whatever it ends up being called will look nothing like it does today.

[Conan71]

In 18 months the East End, Village, whatever it ends up being called will look nothing like it does today.

Man, I sure hope so!