Downtown stadium in the East End....

[Conan71]

I understand your sentiment, however, I just don't see how you can believe that the rebuilding of downtown is going at a slow pace. How much faster should it be? There are so many projects recently completed, under construction and planned. Saying that downtown will look much different in two to three years is not just blind speculation, it will look different. Saying that it won't is just ignoring the current momentum.
True enough but I've been hearing this chant for decades. Its only the last few years that anything has happened and both the arena and the stadium were fraught with controversy. Maybe its just a mental impression that the controversy left. I'm not so impressed anymore with planned projects having seen so many floated out as trial balloons to sniff out investment money.

And what do you mean by "we may find that the downtown window is closing?" Do you think that the renewed interest in downtown is just a fad? I don't. I think this is going to become the new normal. We can't sustain our current growth pattern forever, and I think close quarter living is only going to become increasingly popular. That's not to say that suburbs will soon meet their demise, as they will always exist and do serve a valuable purpose, I just think that more and more people will continue to live closer to the city center, and that America's cities will start to much more closely resemble those of Europe.

Not a fad but not going to be the normal either. The real growth is going to be in the pre-expansion suburbs inside 44, Crosstown, 169 and maybe as far north as hwy 10. There is no real reason to live downtown for most people. It will remain a fun place to visit as long as the businesses survive but I think the cities you dream about have different personalities. There is no inherent reason for living near high rise office buildings unless the economics work for you. What is the % of employment that resides there? The lag in services, shopping, entertainment and food that the masses crave will hold them from committing. Then the higher cost of housing downtown will entice them into the nearby older neigborhoods looking for bargains that are still near the CBD.Bargains that they can modify to fit their lifestyle. Then mini-cbd's will pop up in places like Whittier Square or Crystal City. We already see that on 15th, Pearl, Promenade, Ranch Acres, 21st & Yale. Another good example is 18th and Boston (office buildings, bars, restaurants, banking, a newly planned shopping center surrounded by a mixed bag of income and education.) For downtown, that leaves the innovators, the avante gaurde,the creative class and the outliers to committ.

If we will open ourselves to ideas like real trolleys, forms based zoning etc. and build a strong base of these mini-cbd's around the downtown its place will be secured. Otherwise I fear the fickle finger of fate will waggle disapprovingly.

It's almost as if you've missed most of the development threads on here.  We have grocery markets opening, more housing being built, no shortage of restaurants or recreational activities, and more people are looking at moving businesses large and small downtown. Several have added second or third stores downtown.  In ten years downtown Tulsa will be every bit as vibrant as it was in the 1950's if not sooner.  It's rocking along at lightning speed pace if you consider the state of the national economy since 2008.  I've driven through the Brady district and counted no less than seven cranes in the air at one time before.

[RecycleMichael]

It's rocking along at lightning speed pace if you consider the state of the national economy since 2008. 

I think you meant to say thank you President Obama.

You're welcome.

[Conan71]

I think you meant to say thank you President Obama.

You're welcome.

Is he building all this cool stuff?  

Hey everyone, we got OUR Obama money!!!

Thank you Mr. President!!

[AquaMan]

New Ideas like another stadium? We have two new ones already.

I drifted from the stadium in particular to include a more general acceptance of differing ideas for the downtown area. However, I don't think a multi use stadium downtown, especially in the area just north of 6th should be considered unfeasible. Its unfeasible given the constraints that were offered by the county.

[RecycleMichael]

Now you will be an Obama spooner.

[ZYX]

True enough but I've been hearing this chant for decades. Its only the last few years that anything has happened and both the arena and the stadium were fraught with controversy. Maybe its just a mental impression that the controversy left. I'm not so impressed anymore with planned projects having seen so many floated out as trial balloons to sniff out investment money.

While there have been many such proposals, there have also been MANY that have gone all the way through. There are projects happening all over downtown. I think the Brady streetscaping, once it gets going, will really make at least that area of downtown feel a lot more "clean and "improved."

I know I haven't been around to hear everyone else say things similar to this, but I have a feeling that this time it's different.

[AquaMan]

It's almost as if you've missed most of the development threads on here.  We have grocery markets opening, more housing being built, no shortage of restaurants or recreational activities, and more people are looking at moving businesses large and small downtown. Several have added second or third stores downtown.  In ten years downtown Tulsa will be every bit as vibrant as it was in the 1950's if not sooner.  It's rocking along at lightning speed pace if you consider the state of the national economy since 2008.  I've driven through the Brady district and counted no less than seven cranes in the air at one time before.

When I see the level of grocery shopping available outside the CBD or even a Whole Foods, then I would agree. When I see housing that fits the demographic and its income in Tulsa I would agree. Restaurants come and go but when I see a collection to rival the mass fare on 71st east of Woodland, then ok. When I see an oil company committ to downtown like Devon did, well ok. When i see the flag ship retail store locate downtown with satellites in the burbs, maybe.

Until that time I think some are confusing downtown boosterism with what a vibrant population desires. Its cool, its growing but it will never be the vibrant place it was in the 1950's nor do I think we could tolerate that.

Just think for a moment and look around at who is partying, shopping and working downtown. They are younger than you and I and always will be. They are building families, careers and assets that require schools, services, and infrastructure. When faced with that reality, they will bolt to the areas that fit those needs with perhaps more solid resale potential. Would you give up your mid century modern with your own driveway, small yard, garden, nearby shopping, parks, schools and multiple outlets for beer and liquour purchases to live the downtown experience? Then think of yourself in 10 years which is where I am now. It looks even less attractive to grow old in.

It has its place but it seems unlikely to become the norm. A hub with radiating spokes of supportive hoods seems more likely. Of course, just my opinion.

[AquaMan]

While there have been many such proposals, there have also been MANY that have gone all the way through. There are projects happening all over downtown. I think the Brady streetscaping, once it gets going, will really make at least that area of downtown feel a lot more "clean and "improved."

I know I haven't been around to hear everyone else say things similar to this, but I have a feeling that this time it's different.

I truly miss that feeling, and I not only secretly hope that I am wrong, but that you don't lose that feeling. I don't want to sound melancholy about the downtown. I love it. I wish I could have been younger to enjoy it. But I'm slowly recognizing that its the heart of the animal, not the body.

[swake]

The one I am afraid of, the one that the clown referenced is that damn two story Wal-Mart with a parking garage proposal that was thankfully killed back in '07 when the economy started to go south. I would not be shocked to hear that plan got dusted off.

I hope the clown is talking out his a$$ again, but I'm not sure.

[Conan71]

When I see the level of grocery shopping available outside the CBD or even a Whole Foods, then I would agree. When I see housing that fits the demographic and its income in Tulsa I would agree. Restaurants come and go but when I see a collection to rival the mass fare on 71st east of Woodland, then ok. When I see an oil company committ to downtown like Devon did, well ok. When i see the flag ship retail store locate downtown with satellites in the burbs, maybe.

Until that time I think some are confusing downtown boosterism with what a vibrant population desires. Its cool, its growing but it will never be the vibrant place it was in the 1950's nor do I think we could tolerate that.

Just think for a moment and look around at who is partying, shopping and working downtown. They are younger than you and I and always will be. They are building families, careers and assets that require schools, services, and infrastructure. When faced with that reality, they will bolt to the areas that fit those needs with perhaps more solid resale potential. Would you give up your mid century modern with your own driveway, small yard, garden, nearby shopping, parks, schools and multiple outlets for beer and liquour purchases to live the downtown experience? Then think of yourself in 10 years which is where I am now. It looks even less attractive to grow old in.

It has its place but it seems unlikely to become the norm. A hub with radiating spokes of supportive hoods seems more likely. Of course, just my opinion.

I'm still puzzled by your pessimism.  I really do think you will be surprised at how different and permanent the repopulation of downtown will be in 10 years.

Restaurants don't appear to be coming and going.  Downtown is experiencing a very low restaurant turn-over rate, the reason for that stability is due in part to entrepreneurs like Elliot Nelson who has multiple locations there and really knows what he's doing but mainly because there's a great demand for dining and a place to have a drink in downtown even on nights where the ballpark and the BOK are dark.  Another reason is people with a vision who do a lot to market downtown to the masses like Libby Auld, Mary Beth Babcock, Blake Ewing, and Nelson.

Successful retailers like Fleet Feet and Lee's moving downtown was a huge sign of confidence in downtown.  Both stores seem to be getting plenty of business from people who live or work in the CBD and outside it.

As far as large oil companies, I don't think you could have a much bigger presence in downtown than Williams or Oneok.  I believe Samson has a significant presence there as well.  Cimmarex is building a new tower across from the BOK with additional mixed use space.  I'd say that's serious commitment to the area on the part of the oil and gas companies.  IBM has a lot of space downtown as well.

As the residential population increases, I suspect you will see a larger grocery come into the downtown area.

Not all younger people have children and many are waiting until their 30's to get married.  If they move to the suburbs, there's more who will move in and take their place.  I do happen to see many people my own age and older eating and playing downtown.  Personally, I enjoy my little slice of Lordondale paradise and love that downtown is only a 30 minute bike ride away or a five minute drive if I hop on the BA (of course when they aren't working on the BA *cough*).

We have no plans to retire in Tulsa but if Mrs. C and I ever did decide to downsize and get rid of a yard, I'd have to consider a condo either downtown or near downtown by the river.

[Teatownclown]

 

[TulsaRufnex]

New Ideas like another stadium? We have two new ones already.

After the construction of the soccer specific stadium featured in the first post on this thread, Houston now has four large sports venues, all downtown....

1.  BBVA Compass Stadium - Opened:  May 12, 2012
2.  Toyota Center             - Opened:   Dec 6, 2003
3.  Reliant Stadium            - Opened:  Aug 24, 2002
4.  Minute Maid Park          - Opened:  Mar 30, 2000

The Hartford Building is on 1st & Greenwood.
All Souls will be built between Kenosha & Frankfort Ave on 6th & 7th St.
Tulsa Opera is moving to the old Fire Station on 4th St (the only bid for the property)... http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/opera-is-seen-as-key-player-in-redevelopment-of-east-village

Where is the $$$ coming from for Land Legacy Park?  The church?  The opera company?  The city?  Vision2025?  KFF?
Cuz it ain't gonna come cheap....

And what sort of "public/private partnership" is going to be in the works for future new construction?

Just think for a moment and look around at who is partying, shopping and working downtown. They are younger than you and I and always will be. They are building families, careers and assets that require schools, services, and infrastructure. When faced with that reality, they will bolt to the areas that fit those needs with perhaps more solid resale potential. Would you give up your mid century modern with your own driveway, small yard, garden, nearby shopping, parks, schools and multiple outlets for beer and liquour purchases to live the downtown experience? Then think of yourself in 10 years which is where I am now. It looks even less attractive to grow old in.

It has its place but it seems unlikely to become the norm. A hub with radiating spokes of supportive hoods seems more likely. Of course, just my opinion.

+1

Brady District development makes sense, it's been the traditional arts district of Tulsa-- IMO, Tulsa Opera should have it's offices and rehearsal space there... future Pearl District development makes sense, as there are a few blocks of older buildings with full potential for neighborhood... a Blue Dome entertainment district makes sense... but IMO, this (East End/East Village south of 3rd St) doesn't... too much asphalt, too little urban density, too haphazard-- what downtown church construction projects have inspired people to live downtown?... and you'd think the two Central Park Condo buildings on 7th and Denver would provide for more than enough urban density to support a supermarket, yet the one across the street has been closed for well over a decade...

[AquaMan]

I'm still puzzled by your pessimism.  I really do think you will be surprised at how different and permanent the repopulation of downtown will be in 10 years.

Restaurants don't appear to be coming and going.  Downtown is experiencing a very low restaurant turn-over rate, the reason for that stability is due in part to entrepreneurs like Elliot Nelson who has multiple locations there and really knows what he's doing but mainly because there's a great demand for dining and a place to have a drink in downtown even on nights where the ballpark and the BOK are dark.  Another reason is people with a vision who do a lot to market downtown to the masses like Libby Auld, Mary Beth Babcock, Blake Ewing, and Nelson.

Successful retailers like Fleet Feet and Lee's moving downtown was a huge sign of confidence in downtown.  Both stores seem to be getting plenty of business from people who live or work in the CBD and outside it.

As far as large oil companies, I don't think you could have a much bigger presence in downtown than Williams or Oneok.  I believe Samson has a significant presence there as well.  Cimmarex is building a new tower across from the BOK with additional mixed use space.  I'd say that's serious commitment to the area on the part of the oil and gas companies.  IBM has a lot of space downtown as well.

As the residential population increases, I suspect you will see a larger grocery come into the downtown area.

Not all younger people have children and many are waiting until their 30's to get married.  If they move to the suburbs, there's more who will move in and take their place.  I do happen to see many people my own age and older eating and playing downtown.  Personally, I enjoy my little slice of Lordondale paradise and love that downtown is only a 30 minute bike ride away or a five minute drive if I hop on the BA (of course when they aren't working on the BA *cough*).

We have no plans to retire in Tulsa but if Mrs. C and I ever did decide to downsize and get rid of a yard, I'd have to consider a condo either downtown or near downtown by the river.

No, no, no. Its not pessimism, its a reconstructing of my perspective. Say that three times quickly, eh? I'm proud of downtown and love visiting.

Let me put it a different way that is based on observation. My neighbor's son just graduated from TU and got a job right in the downtown area. Ground zero. He and his fiance rented space in the nearby hypo-dermic needle less than a mile away. He is at best 24. It makes sense for them to live there and enjoy downtown. My son did the same thing in OKC when he graduated. Moved to a chic apartment complex downtown, partied there, was employed there, met the woman of his dreams there, married and ....moved to a nearby chic neighborhood of old homes. Fixed the house up, wife got pregnant and they moved to a better school district halfway between Norman and downtown OKC where their respective jobs are. That will probably lead to a decade of suburban living. I expect my neighbor's kid to follow a similar path.  I bet you followed a similar path.

Now the next generations are not as large as ours. Boomers may find condo living downtown suitable for their older age living but they bring with them their boomer lifestyles which, lets face it, are no longer cool. It could be that we fast forward ten years to a downtown filled with churches, doggie parks, coffee shops, and fat tired old people milling around aimlessly. Goodbye Tulsa Tough, hello Tulsa Soft. Meanwhile that younger group only hung around for a few years then followed the path my son and neighbor did.

Look around downtown with that perspective and see if a different future might emerge when the money does the same thing.

[swake]

No, no, no. Its not pessimism, its a reconstructing of my perspective. Say that three times quickly, eh? I'm proud of downtown and love visiting.

Let me put it a different way that is based on observation. My neighbor's son just graduated from TU and got a job right in the downtown area. Ground zero. He and his fiance rented space in the nearby hypo-dermic needle less than a mile away. He is at best 24. It makes sense for them to live there and enjoy downtown. My son did the same thing in OKC when he graduated. Moved to a chic apartment complex downtown, partied there, was employed there, met the woman of his dreams there, married and ....moved to a nearby chic neighborhood of old homes. Fixed the house up, wife got pregnant and they moved to a better school district halfway between Norman and downtown OKC where their respective jobs are. That will probably lead to a decade of suburban living. I expect my neighbor's kid to follow a similar path.  I bet you followed a similar path.

Now the next generations are not as large as ours. Boomers may find condo living downtown suitable for their older age living but they bring with them their boomer lifestyles which, lets face it, are no longer cool. It could be that we fast forward ten years to a downtown filled with churches, doggie parks, coffee shops, and fat tired old people milling around aimlessly. Goodbye Tulsa Tough, hello Tulsa Soft. Meanwhile that younger group only hung around for a few years then followed the path my son and neighbor did.

Look around downtown with that perspective and see if a different future might emerge when the money does the same thing.

Population is not declining and Gen Y is bigger than the boomers

[AquaMan]

Population is not declining and Gen Y is bigger than the boomers

Refresh my Time magazine cover story memory. What span is Gen Y and what exactly are their numbers? I thought that the baby boom was a much bigger blip than any other generation unless you widen the parameters. Unless you mean that the Y's outnumber the remaining number of boomers.

Also, some patterns seem to repeat. My example spanned from a 24 year old to a 30yr old but closely paralleled my own experience from over 30 yrs earlier when I worked downtown, lived at Place One then moved to the burbs, then back to the old town.