Today’s GOP: You can’t reason with crazy

[AquaMan]

I participated in the decline. My oldest son's first profanity was to call me a ....Buh-Ted...presumably Beavis' friend. I was so proud.

[TheArtist]

Conservatives don't care about anyone else, but on average give more of their money and time to charitable organizations? I think I've got it.

It's not that conservatives don't care about other people, it's that it is impossible for liberals to believe that what conservatives want to do will actually help everyone, which if implemented correctly, will. It has been proven, over and over and over. Rand understood that decisions need to be made at the individual level, because people in general are selfish. She never once said that people should not think about the greater good. She just said they should not be required to do so. If she wanted to give to charity, it was because she was selfish and it benefited her in some way (made her feel good or whatever).

This is slanted propaganda at it's finest.

That's interesting.  Yes it does seem that evangelical Christians do believe in the Church doing for the poor vrs government or even "secular charities".  Saw some stats the other day that said that Oklahomans were some of the most giving people in the nation.  Yet here we are with some of the highest cime rates, highest poverty rates, highest rates of child abuse, neglect and murder, etc. etc. etc.   Hows that working for us?

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's actually not what she said at all.

It has been a long time (during and after high school) since I have read Rand.  Will have to go back and review - a lot of time has elapsed.

From what I DO remember, and the Wallace interview really brought it out, is that she really doesn't believe in much at all, except for the individual - presumably, supported by her writing - as the "rugged individualist".  Unless they are all getting together to strike against "the machine". 

What just absolutely is astounding to me is the fundamentalist right wing religious groups who have taken up the banner of Ayn Rand.  The only ones in the 60's and early 70's who were disciples were the lunatic fringe. 

Certainly easy to see where Greenspan got his philosophy of "enlightened self-interest" in the casual  watch-dog efforts over American corporations for so many years.  He said that the best way was to let them "self-regulate" their activities, since they will only do that which is in the best interest of the American economy.

Ooopppsss!!!

[Teatownclown]

"It feels like we have really degraded as a nation in our conversations."

It's the Wimp Factor at work. Just look around here and cover the mirrors at home.

...amazingly enough these conversations are

"  all show, with nothing solid on the inside to back it up..."

[nathanm]

They view individual responsibility and opportunity as a burden, freedom as a curse, and equality as a tool of plunder rather than a simple truth.

Speaking only for myself I see a society owned by the corporations and the wealthy to be quite unlike freedom. More like serfdom.

Mr. Asparagus: The thing is that they do act in their self interest. The problem is that the corporate fellatio artists of both parties rewrote the rules so that what's in their best interest is not in the best interest of the rest of us. They have been allowed to grow so large we can't let them bear the consequences of their mistakes without cratering our economy.

Weren't the bank bailouts the immediately precipitating event for the formation of the Tea Party before it was co-opted by right wing money? Doesn't it seem like the left and the right could work together to break them into manageable pieces?

[Teatownclown]

Speaking only for myself I see a society owned by the corporations and the wealthy to be quite unlike freedom. More like serfdom.

Serfdom would be good for the sheeples!

[erfalf]

That's interesting.  Yes it does seem that evangelical Christians do believe in the Church doing for the poor vrs government or even "secular charities".  Saw some stats the other day that said that Oklahomans were some of the most giving people in the nation.  Yet here we are with some of the highest cime rates, highest poverty rates, highest rates of child abuse, neglect and murder, etc. etc. etc.   Hows that working for us?

I hope you are not trying to draw a correlation between the two. If so, I fail to see it. If so, it would be enlightening.

I'm not by any means defending everything Oklahoma's politicians do. They are some real ding bats there that's for sure. I was just trying to show that what one might call selfishness, another might call compassion. It is all a matter of perspective. Something that seems to be lacking for sure.

Regarding the Rand interview, it is a good one for sure. Wallace definitaly had his predisposition to favor some government programs, but he was willing to entertain Rand's point of view. Which I still don't understand how AquaMan thinks I was off base on my assessment of her. Can you explain? Please...

[TheArtist]

I hope you are not trying to draw a correlation between the two. If so, I fail to see it. If so, it would be enlightening.

I'm not by any means defending everything Oklahoma's politicians do. They are some real ding bats there that's for sure. I was just trying to show that what one might call selfishness, another might call compassion. It is all a matter of perspective. Something that seems to be lacking for sure.

Regarding the Rand interview, it is a good one for sure. Wallace definitaly had his predisposition to favor some government programs, but he was willing to entertain Rand's point of view. Which I still don't understand how AquaMan thinks I was off base on my assessment of her. Can you explain? Please...

I will just toss out a bunch of "correlations" that I see.  Each one quite different, yet they all seem to fall together to paint one picture.


1.  Look at a demographic map of the US showing early migration patterns and you see a swath running through the south and appalachia of people who have always tended to hold quite religious/evangelical and "pick yourself up by your own bootstraps"  "anti-government intervention" perspectives.  Big chunk of those people were the ones who migrated into Oklahoma as the farmers and oil workers.

2.  Look at the poverty map and obesity map and you get a swath that follows that migration pattern almost exactly.

3.  There is a synergistic thing that goes on in the NE.  Big, pedestrian friendly cities and certain european demograpics/attitudes.  The synergies tend to push a "lets work together because we are all in it together" attitude.   

4.  I look around the world and it seems to me that many of the most religiously fundamentalist and highly religious countries are ones that either have some of the least freedoms and or the most crimes.  One can't help but think of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia as examples of that and believe more in "punishment, eye for an eye, anti gay, keeping women in their place, etc.". 

5.  I look around the world and see that many of the least religious democracies also have some of the lowest crime rates and believe more in "helping people become better and being aware of mental illnesses and how to help those people, gays and women are treated well, are some of the "happiest" countries in the world, create great pedestrian/transit frienly cities, etc."

6.  Then I look at Oklahoma and see our high crime rates, hear the calls for harsher punishments, teaching creationism in schools, getting rid of government (unless its about enforcing something religious), having the churches be the ones that help the poor not the government, hatred of gays, championing keeping women at home, having religious schools and tearing down public schools or having religion in them, anti-pedestrian/public transit, etc. etc.  And I can't help but think that there are a lot of people in this state that want to push us more towards the Afghanistan side of things vrs say Denmark or Sweeden.

Whenever you hear things that the good folk in our capitol are doing and the "values" they espouse... which direction do you think they are wanting to take us? 

[AquaMan]

It's the Wimp Factor at work. Just look around here and cover the mirrors at home.

...amazingly enough these conversations are

Hey...you talkin' about me?! True enough I have participated as I said in the decline in good, intelligent issue discussion. But overall I have eschewed the name calling, and the dogma in favor of insight and analysis. Maybe not as bold as you or the Gweed......

[Townsend]

6.  Then I look at Oklahoma and see our high crime rates, hear the calls for harsher punishments, teaching creationism in schools, getting rid of government (unless its about enforcing something religious), having the churches be the ones that help the poor not the government, hatred of gays, championing keeping women at home, having religious schools and tearing down public schools or having religion in them, anti-pedestrian/public transit, etc. etc.  And I can't help but think that there are a lot of people in this state that want to push us more towards the Afghanistan side of things vrs say Denmark or Sweeden.

Whenever you hear things that the good folk in our capitol are doing and the "values" they espouse... which direction do you think they are wanting to take us? 

I blame a "lemming" attitude here in Oklahoma.  If our education was better people would learn the "Okie" way was wrong. 

Oklahoman's don't know any better so we do things to fit in and yell out "yeah" holding our pitch forks when told to by our leaders.

If you're not towing the line you're an outsider and can't be trusted.

Has anyone seen the new Sullivan commercial?  A perfect example.

[AquaMan]

Regarding the Rand interview, it is a good one for sure. Wallace definitaly had his predisposition to favor some government programs, but he was willing to entertain Rand's point of view. Which I still don't understand how AquaMan thinks I was off base on my assessment of her. Can you explain? Please...

Perhaps you mistook another post somewhere else for mine? I can't find where I addressed an assessment of her. I don't really know enough other than that clip to even assess her. If you mean the predisposition towards government programs that you though Wallace had, I didn't see that as a bias but more as a devil's advocate role since he was the only other participant in the conversation. Her views, although fringe back then and commonplace now, were an invitation to question their effect on those existing programs.

[AquaMan]

I blame a "lemming" attitude here in Oklahoma.  If our education was better people would learn the "Okie" way was wrong. 

Oklahoman's don't know any better so we do things to fit in and yell out "yeah" holding our pitch forks when told to by our leaders.

If you're not towing the line you're an outsider and can't be trusted.

Has anyone seen the new Sullivan commercial?  A perfect example.

Saw some of the visuals. A lot of scowling faces whenever the words Obama or Obama Care were used. Typical stuff. Turn the sound off and just laugh.

[Townsend]

Saw some of the visuals. A lot of scowling faces whenever the words Obama or Obama Care were used. Typical stuff. Turn the sound off and just laugh.

"Okie Way" and "He's got Okie in him".  Those were the tags.

I'd laugh if I lived outside the state and thought it was a joke.  I don't and it's not meant to be.  Nauseated...that fits.

[erfalf]

Perhaps you mistook another post somewhere else for mine? I can't find where I addressed an assessment of her. I don't really know enough other than that clip to even assess her. If you mean the predisposition towards government programs that you though Wallace had, I didn't see that as a bias but more as a devil's advocate role since he was the only other participant in the conversation. Her views, although fringe back then and commonplace now, were an invitation to question their effect on those existing programs.

Sorry about that, it was nathan who posted the video. I just didn't understand his problem with my comment. Sorry again.

I guess my perspective of Wallace is shaped by more recent interviews of him. He definitely has a point of view (which we all do). He just seemed to frame some of the questions in the Rand interview in a "you're crazy for thinking this" light. Which, at the time, maybe it was really that crazy. Heck my parents were children when it happened. Things have changed a bunch since then.

[erfalf]

Has anyone seen the new Sullivan commercial?  A perfect example.

I about through up in my mouth when I heard it. I'm afraid this election cycle is going to be very emotionally based. It will be difficult for either candidate to really point at their accomplishments because they have both pissed off so many people.