Palace Clothing Building/Old Arby's

[BKDotCom]

How So?  I would think just the opposite.

Ditto.
Can we get a graph that plots the # of surface parking spots downtown and the amount of retail with time?
It seems to me they're inversely proportional.

One shop's surface parking can't be another shop, critical mass, walk-ability, preaching to the choir, etc

Wait, was rdj being satirical??

[rdj]

I believe they were referring to ground level parking lots.  (American Parking et al.)

Ground parking needs to be banned from anywhere in the IDL.

I read the word anywhere to be just that anywhere.  Regardless, I still think it is a mistake.  Surface level parking has a place in Tulsa's downtown.  Do I wish there was less of it?  Absolutely, but don't discount the need for doing business downtown to be convenient.

Here's an example, if I want to get carry out for the family dinner from Joe Momma's Pizza I can park on the street, the American Parking lot across the street or the pay parking lot on 2nd between Detroit & Elgin (I'll discount the parking between Dwelling Spaces & Lyons as those are reserved for those businesses and the junkyard behind El Guapo) while I run inside for a few moments to get my pizza.  If I have to deal with the time and expense of structured parking and walk a block or two how likely am I to get carryout?  If the street parking is available, which many times it is full, it is free for my dinner pick up and very convenient.  If not available and the product is good enough will I be willing to pay and walk across the street?  Probably, which as an aside American Parking has recently upgraded their pay technology and enforcement on the large Blue Dome lot.  Point is, having convenient ground level parking is essential for those patrons of downtown businesses that just want to run in.

The whole point is, surface parking serves a purpose in the urban area.  Would I like to see a good portion improved, yes, but don't take a hardline, no surface parking ever mentality.  It gets nothing accomplished.

[nathanm]

Here's an example, if I want to get carry out for the family dinner from Joe Momma's Pizza I can park on the street, the American Parking lot across the street or the pay parking lot on 2nd between Detroit & Elgin (I'll discount the parking between Dwelling Spaces & Lyons as those are reserved for those businesses and the junkyard behind El Guapo) while I run inside for a few moments to get my pizza.

Give a few on-street spots per block a 15 minute time limit. Problem solved.

[rdj]

Give a few on-street spots per block a 15 minute time limit. Problem solved.

Agree 100%.  That is the idea behind the proposal the city is making with American Parking.  The on-street parking is not turning over like it needs to for an effective parking system.  It varies in different parts of downtown, but it does appear much of the on-street parking is occupied by employees.

[sgrizzle]

Someone count the number of ground-level Spots in the IDL.

Set that number as the maximum number of surface-level parking spots in the IDL.

Subtract 5% annually.

[davideinstein]

I believe they were referring to ground level parking lots.  (American Parking et al.)

Yes.

I am a champion of curbside parking though.

[tulsabug]

The problems I have with surface level parking are:
1) Normally it only happens because the property owner found it cheaper to tear the building down and just pave it.
Undeveloped land in certain districts should have a higher tax rate than if they were developed. The slum lords wouldn't tear the buildings down since right now that's the only reason they do. Even old buildings in need of repair look better than a slab of asphalt. I don't blame business owners for this - they will always head towards the cheapest but most profitable route - that's business, so change that path for them.
2) It's ugly which is bad for the city in every way possible.
It's tough to sell Tulsa to new businesses when it's downtown looks like an asphalt lake. It's shows the local government is blind to it's history and it's future and probably getting kickbacks from the parking lot companies. It's tells me that if I want to do business here I better get ready to grease some local officials if I want to get anything done.
3) It takes needed revenue away from the city in two ways - parking fees and property tax losses.
When the city bothers to buy batteries for it's meters, downtown parking is a major source of constant and consistent revenue. Why allow competition especially at the cost of losing property tax revenue? Simple - kickbacks. Honestly the entire city government from the 60's and 70's and maybe later should be sued.

Of course I could ramble on for a few hours about this (can't we all) but enough threadjacking.... 

[TheArtist]

I read the word anywhere to be just that anywhere.  Regardless, I still think it is a mistake.  Surface level parking has a place in Tulsa's downtown.  Do I wish there was less of it?  Absolutely, but don't discount the need for doing business downtown to be convenient.

Here's an example, if I want to get carry out for the family dinner from Joe Momma's Pizza I can park on the street, the American Parking lot across the street or the pay parking lot on 2nd between Detroit & Elgin (I'll discount the parking between Dwelling Spaces & Lyons as those are reserved for those businesses and the junkyard behind El Guapo) while I run inside for a few moments to get my pizza.  If I have to deal with the time and expense of structured parking and walk a block or two how likely am I to get carryout?  If the street parking is available, which many times it is full, it is free for my dinner pick up and very convenient.  If not available and the product is good enough will I be willing to pay and walk across the street?  Probably, which as an aside American Parking has recently upgraded their pay technology and enforcement on the large Blue Dome lot.  Point is, having convenient ground level parking is essential for those patrons of downtown businesses that just want to run in.

The whole point is, surface parking serves a purpose in the urban area.  Would I like to see a good portion improved, yes, but don't take a hardline, no surface parking ever mentality.  It gets nothing accomplished.

So instead of having a lot that has businesses and or residences (pizza customers) the lot is available for you (pizza customers) to drive in and drive out.  

So instead of having a lot that has businesses and or residences with customers walking past, not just the pizza place, but other businesses, like mine,,, we have a lot where someone can drive into the pizza place, and drive out not walking past other businesses.

So instead of having a lot with businesses and or residences increasing the pedestrian friendly nature of downtown, we have a lot that decreases the pedestrian friendly nature of downtown thus taking away potential customers.  

So instead of having a lot with businesses and or residences adding density (aka customers), and to the pedestrian friendly nature of downtown which would help transit be effective (more customers),,, we have lots which hurt the creation and implementation of transit which then also takes more pedestrians (customers) off the street walking past numerous businesses/restaurants.  

(but at least YOU, get your pizza, screw everyone else and their lifestyle preferences and businesses)  

You can't have it both ways in one area.  Urban (pedestrian/transit oriented) and Suburban (car oriented) style developments will fight each other.  In a city where most development is suburban/car oriented, if you want to get areas that are truly urban, pedestrian/transit oriented, then you have to zone for that type of development.    

It's fine that people drive to downtown and park at street parking to do a quick errand, and we could increase the number of those parking spaces dramatically.  

It's also fine that people drive into downtown and park at the numerous parking garages to work,live, go to an event like a concert or ballgame, stay at a hotel, spend the day shopping/sightseeing,etc. and so on... but those people are far more likely to then walk past other businesses and restaurants and thus create more customers than those popping in for a pizza or quick errand and parking right by that pizza place or errand, then leaving.  

98% or more of my customers are people who are in downtown for some other reason than just to park by my front door and pop into my place only.  And being in my shop each day I can see that the best way to get more customers is to, not have more parking nearby (which there is ample plenty already), but to get the remaining empty buildings near me filled with businesses, shops, restaurants, and residences and to remove the pedestrian friendly killing gaps nearby by having them replaced with even more businesses, shops, restaurants, residences, etc. which will then help create more pedestrians who will drop into my shop.  Love that 2% that parks right nearby and pops in and out don't get me wrong, but there is no way in an urban, downtown model, that I can grow my business by primarily focusing on customers like that.  My main concern is the people coming into downtown who are there for longer periods, perhaps going to some other business, and then having them walking past mine... or conversely, coming to my business and then walking past my friends businesses down the street.  The more pedestrian friendly businesses and activities nearby the better for all of us. Less, hurts all of us.  

Our business is also a paying supporter of the new downtown "trolley" service which runs around downtown past oooodles of parking structures.  What I would like to see is not that it runs by the same, or more, number of surface parking lots that it does now, but LESS parking lots, aka, more businesses, restaurants, shops, interesting things to see and do, residences, etc. thus giving people even more reason to avail themselves of the "trolley" and stay downtown for longer periods = more potential customers for both me and the pizza place.  

Come sit at my shop with me one day for only a few hours perhaps.  Watch people walking by and driving by.  Talk to the customers that do come in.  Then tell me what you would rather see nearby.  Surface parking lots and or more of them, or more shops, businesses, restaurants, lofts, etc.   I am not in a suburban strip mall.  

[rdj]

I'm not advocating for more surface parking.  I'm simply saying there is a role for them in a healthy urban area.

[sgrizzle]

I have been amazed recently the number of people I have mentioned this building too who roll their eyes at the earthquake story. This includes people who don't follow the news as closely as us forumites.

[Weatherdemon]

I have been amazed recently the number of people I have mentioned this building too who roll their eyes at the earthquake story. This includes people who don't follow the news as closely as us forumites.

Me too.

[DowntownDan]

I'm not advocating for more surface parking.  I'm simply saying there is a role for them in a healthy urban area.

You may be right, but there should be no doubt that downtown Tulsa as it is right now has way too much surface parking.  If 75-80% of what is now surface parking gets consumed by buildings and businesses, then lack of useful surface parking might become an issue.  I have access to the Central Parking garage behind the tower (next to the Jazz Depot).  I can get anywhere I want downtown from there with no problems whatsoever.

[nathanm]

I'm not advocating for more surface parking.  I'm simply saying there is a role for them in a healthy urban area.

A very, very limited amount of it would be fine on some blocks where there is already open space, but only if it's screened from the street, preferably by a building. The lot between Arvest and BofA on the corner of 5th and Boulder is about as big as they should ever get, and that one only gets a pass because it's landscaped reasonably well.

The other thing we need to do going forward regarding parking is require that new garages have ground level rental space. Even with the trees, it's still dismal walking past the garage south of OneOk. Most especially on Cheyenne where you've got garages on both sides of you. There is nothing interesting there at all. Maybe we could convince St. John and OneOk to let someone paint some interesting murals or something.

[patric]

Maybe we could convince St. John and OneOk to let someone paint some interesting murals or something.

Maybe like this, but in reverse?
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=16814.0

[Townsend]

Maybe like this, but in reverse?
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=16814.0

Oy