Am I Responsible For My Neighbor's Children Education?

[Teatownclown]

Or the streets that feed my development....

Montereau Retirement Community gets stay in tax case

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120519_16_A15_CUTLIN943739
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120519_16_A15_CUTLIN943739

By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
Published: 5/19/2012  2:14 AM
Last Modified: 5/19/2012  4:48 AM

A Tulsa County judge this week agreed to consider the Montereau Retirement Community's request that the Assessor's Office be directed to exempt the nonprofit entity from taxation.

District Judge Mary Fitzgerald issued an emergency stay in all administrative appeals in the case Thursday and scheduled oral arguments for June 5.

Attorney Joel Wohlgemuth requested the stay on behalf of his clients, Montereau Inc. and the William K. Warren Medical Research Center, which owns the land.

In his petition, Wohlgemuth states that Tulsa County Assessor Ken Yazel has recognized Montereau's exemption as a licensed continuum of care retirement center since it was granted in 2001.

"However, this year the Assessor placed the property on the assessment roll based on his apparently new belief that the CCRC (continuum of care retirement center) Exemption Statute, which he has consistently applied for years, is now unconstitutional," the petition states.

After being notified in February that the property had been assessed a taxable value of $178,990,012, representatives of Montereau met with the Assessor's Office for an informal hearing to challenge the assessment.

On May 14, the Assessor's Office sent a letter to Montereau stating that the taxable value of the property had been lowered to $107,394,007.

The estimated property taxes due on a property of that value is $1.5 million based on last year's millage rate, according to the Assessor's Office.

Montereau - and all property owners who go through the informal protest process - can appeal the Assessor's Office's decision to the Tulsa County Equalization Board.

But in his petition for a stay, Wohlgemuth argues that only the court has the authority to address the core issue in question: whether the assessor "has a duty to exempt property pursuant to Oklahoma statute regardless of his personal view of the statute's constitutionality."

Montereau is not the first nonprofit entity to challenge Yazel's interpretation of the continuum of care retirement center exemption.

In April, an attorney for Baptist Village Retirement Centers accused Yazel of "attacking sick, elderly people" after that entity received an assessment on its Owasso facility - the first time that had happened.

As he did in April, Yazel this week asserted that the county's licensed continuum of care facilities, including Montereau and Baptist Village, were among approximately 2,500 tax-exempt properties whose classifications were re-examined this year as part of the Assessor's Office's legally mandated duties.

Other licensed continuum of care facilities whose nonexempt status also was being reviewed were Franciscan Villa, St. Simeon's Episcopal Home, the Tulsa Jewish Retirement Community and Health Care Center, and the Villages at Southern Hills.

Yazel said his office must determine whether each property in Montereau is properly classified as a continuum of care facility that can be exempt from property taxes when operated by a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization and meeting other criteria in law or whether it should receive another classification.

Those structures not deemed to be exempt continue to be taxable and are assessed accordingly, he said.

"First of all, they have much more out there than they are licensed for," Yazel said. "You can be exempted for various reasons, (but) that doesn't apply to building a village out there, which is seemingly what they have done.

"They have all kinds of amenities - they have valet parking, a restaurant, an eight-story apartment building - and if you take that value, which is very conservative, and divide it by the number of licensed beds, that's more than $1 million per licensed bed."


Original Print Headline: Montereau gets stay in tax case

Ken Yazel has guts!"You can be exempted for various reasons, (but) that doesn't apply to building a village out there, which is seemingly what they have done."

[AquaMan]

Agreed. Typical tax dodge behavior along with rationalization. Load shifting.

Those taxes cover things like educating theirs and others grand children so they don't become total criminals who raid your village etc. Perhaps they should pay for all services the community provides on an as needed basis.

I grew up in an older neighborhood where the residents routinely opposed school millage increases. They reasoned that their children had already been educated and they had paid their fair share. I'm sure that logic still exists. It fails the community.

[Conan71]

What happened to the praise you had for the Warren Foundation a few weeks ago about all the jobs they create via direct employment plus all the construction jobs supported by their ever-expanding empire.  St. Francis Hospital also does provide somewhat of a charity service to the community.  At last count, there's probably 8000 to 10,000 people paying property, sales, and income tax in this area as a result of WF's operations and expenditures.  Would it kill the Warren Foundation to pay property tax on it's various operations?  Probably not.  Are they not contributing to the community at large?  Let's hear some opinions.

[Teatownclown]

What happened to the praise you had for the Warren Foundation a few weeks ago about all the jobs they create via direct employment plus all the construction jobs supported by their ever-expanding empire.  St. Francis Hospital also does provide somewhat of a charity service to the community.  At last count, there's probably 8000 to 10,000 people paying property, sales, and income tax in this area as a result of WF's operations and expenditures.  Would it kill the Warren Foundation to pay property tax on it's various operations?  Probably not.  Are they not contributing to the community at large?  Let's hear some opinions.

Are you talking about my assessment of 91st and 169? There was no praise....

Praise the lord , but I've been consistent about 5013c's.  Criticizing their use of government welfare will continue.

The government provides far more jobs. I don't hear you defending them...

[guido911]

Agreed. Typical tax dodge behavior along with rationalization. Load shifting.

Those taxes cover things like educating theirs and others grand children so they don't become total criminals who raid your village etc. Perhaps they should pay for all services the community provides on an as needed basis.

I grew up in an older neighborhood where the residents routinely opposed school millage increases. They reasoned that their children had already been educated and they had paid their fair share. I'm sure that logic still exists. It fails the community.

To answer the question: NO. I am responsible for educating my kids ONLY--which I do. Over the course of history we have convinced ourselves that it IS everyone's responsibility to provide an education--even those persons having no children. Is it wrong to do so? Of course not. Children--every child--should get an education.

Haven't we already had this discussion numerous times? Yes. we have. But now we can have it again while bashing tax exemptions of non-profits.

[AquaMan]

To answer the question: NO. I am responsible for educating my kids ONLY--which I do. Over the course of history we have convinced ourselves that it IS everyone's responsibility to provide an education--even those persons having no children. Is it wrong to do so? Of course not. Children--every child--should get an education.

Haven't we already had this discussion numerous times? Yes. we have. But now we can have it again while bashing tax exemptions of non-profits.

Ridiculous. In fact I had presumed you to be a lot smarter than those remarks imply. In the future everyone will have their own 501-3c's. We can all live on our own islands and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. Just like you.

I'm about to conclude that this forum isn't nearly as erudite and insightful as I thought. Lots of fools who don't mind parroting other peoples extreme views from extreme organizations with very few pragmatics. Oh, well. Maybe that's just what Tulsa is.

[Conan71]

Are you talking about my assessment of 91st and 169? There was no praise....

Praise the lord , but I've been consistent about 5013c's.  Criticizing their use of government welfare will continue.

The government provides far more jobs. I don't hear you defending them...

By comparison of tax dollars spent on directly employing government workers in Tulsa vs. the tax breaks the the Warren Foundation gets and the number of jobs created by each, the Warren Foundation ends up putting more money back in the economy and costs the tax payers far less.

[RecycleMichael]

I'm about to conclude that this forum isn't nearly as erudite and insightful as I thought.

Stay gold, Ponyboy.

[AquaMan]

To answer the question: NO. I am responsible for educating my kids ONLY--which I do. Over the course of history we have convinced ourselves that it IS everyone's responsibility to provide an education--even those persons having no children.

This is the crux of your failure.

Why do you think that when our founders laid out our country that they insisted on having a certain amount of land (60 acres I believe) set aside for each township that was dedicated to education? That land was for educating children and the cost of that land was spread out over the entire population, those with and without children.

So, no, it wasn't over the course of history, it was at the beginning of our history.

[Red Arrow]

This is the crux of your failure.

Why do you think that when our founders laid out our country that they insisted on having a certain amount of land (60 acres I believe) set aside for each township that was dedicated to education? That land was for educating children and the cost of that land was spread out over the entire population, those with and without children.

So, no, it wasn't over the course of history, it was at the beginning of our history.

Interesting article about public education and land grants.

I can't make the link directly bring up the article but Google

"Public Schools and the Original Federal Land Grant Program"  and look at the pdf by the Center on Education Policy.  It should show up first on the list.

This link should get you to the link to the article.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&oq=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_l=hp.3...717.20270.0.20824.70.64.5.0.0.0.565.5617.55j6j5-1.62.0.tshc.1.0.0.5gZTzYFEoPc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=72e94fd8b9c26ce4&biw=1867&bih=1015


Edit:  difficulties getting a good link.

[Teatownclown]

By comparison of tax dollars spent on directly employing government workers in Tulsa vs. the tax breaks the the Warren Foundation gets and the number of jobs created by each, the Warren Foundation ends up putting more money back in the economy and costs the tax payers far less.

That's just plain incorrect. The City of Tulsa through infrastructure maintenance, economic development, capital improvements, services, and security creates much more commerce than a 5013c that uses it's religulous tax preferences to gouge the rest of us and also to avoid their civic responsibility. The Warren Foundation does many good things. Yet, they also feed off the tax payer in the form of corporate welfare. Monteraux is a retirement village composed of many ethnic and religious citizens. They have restaurants and bars and services that compete with profit oriented assisted living communities and capitalistic enterprises. Why should they get an unfair competitive advantage? After all, their infrastructure was paid for not only by their clients but by their competitors as well. Was the tax code provision for 5013c's designed for this socialistic purpose? Should they force all their clients to attend mass to comply with the law? If this were in the downtown, you all would be insisting that the retirement communities owned by the Baptists or the Episcopalians need to help with the ball park. Fact of the matter, downtown could use some wise old citizens but it's hard competing with the suburbs. And one more thing, do you think the ad valorem tax bill would be borne by the owners or passed through to the occupants?

[AquaMan]

Interesting article about public education and land grants.

I can't make the link directly bring up the article but Google

"Public Schools and the Original Federal Land Grant Program"  and look at the pdf by the Center on Education Policy.  It should show up first on the list.

This link should get you to the link to the article.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&oq=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_l=hp.3...717.20270.0.20824.70.64.5.0.0.0.565.5617.55j6j5-1.62.0.tshc.1.0.0.5gZTzYFEoPc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=72e94fd8b9c26ce4&biw=1867&bih=1015


Edit:  difficulties getting a good link.

Thanks. Mostly pdf form so I'll download them and read later. Looks like one was the Center on Education Policy that accumulated some of the current thinking. Have to be careful of those publications who have dedicated themselves to rewriting, re-interpreting and just plain misrepresenting history.

I learned of communities using the dedication of land for education purposes in a college level real estate class, then later when obtaining my real estate license. The land was then used to fund the systems.

[Red Arrow]

Looks like one was the Center on Education Policy that accumulated some of the current thinking. Have to be careful of those publications who have dedicated themselves to rewriting, re-interpreting and just plain misrepresenting history.

They appeared to document the article with legitimate looking references.  I don't personally know anything about the CEP.  I would certainly look closely at anything involving editorial content.

[guido911]

Ridiculous. In fact I had presumed you to be a lot smarter than those remarks imply. In the future everyone will have their own 501-3c's. We can all live on our own islands and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. Just like you.

I'm about to conclude that this forum isn't nearly as erudite and insightful as I thought. Lots of fools who don't mind parroting other peoples extreme views from extreme organizations with very few pragmatics. Oh, well. Maybe that's just what Tulsa is.

You should be more concerned about your disrespectful and damnable tone waterboy. I, as do many many others out there, do PLENTY to make life livable for everyone far beyond what they pay in taxes--which is far more than you. And get over your damned self and how "erudite" you think you are. Unless someone appointed you "president of the internet" and can thus boycott posters, there are people out there that, gulp, who may disagree with you.

EDITED:  In thinking about this I have concluded that I am just done with whatever "beyond tax" contributions to make this town and state better. I am not even from here originally, yet it's my home and I wanted nothing more than my neighbors to be better off--even at my own personal expense. Not any more. Helping others--which is what it's supposed to be about and NOT how such makes the donor feel--is now lost to me. Maybe waterboy's insight can make up the difference.

[guido911]

This is the crux of your failure.

Why do you think that when our founders laid out our country that they insisted on having a certain amount of land (60 acres I believe) set aside for each township that was dedicated to education? That land was for educating children and the cost of that land was spread out over the entire population, those with and without children.

So, no, it wasn't over the course of history, it was at the beginning of our history.

I'll go back to our constitution and find where the right to education paid for by your neighbor is found.