The Supreme Court decision on ObamaCare

[heironymouspasparagus]

It's going to be a few years before we can truly see either the benefit or complete folly the ACA is on medical costs.  Honestly, I don't see how costs come down when you bring 10+ more million people into the care pool.

You just mentioned the fallacy - how costs could come down adding 10 million to the care pool... They are already IN the care pool.  Hospitals are required to treat, so, instead of going to a doctor in what most of us would consider the 'normal' way - make an appointment for yearly checkup - they go to the ER.  Your costs today, including the insured part includes 30% or so extra to cover those expenses.  If those 10 million get into the pool, costs may still actually go up, but it won't be because of that 30% contribution today.  (It will be price gouging, fixing, and collusion....)

We have a classic example of how this SHOULD work (but, granted, may not) in EMSA.  What does it cost to take an ambulance ride?  And what does it cost to take an ambulance ride if you subscribe to the Totalcare plan for EMSA rides?  EXACTLY the same principle.  (And anyone who lives in the coverage area and does not subscribe is an idiot.)  Now, will reality be hijacked?  We will just have to wait and see.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And here comes the attack ads:


As I said, let's see how this plays out. But still:

More accurately would be the condition that if you don't want to buy health insurance, fine, you get no access to the health care system that has been so heavily built by the other taxpayers - and YES, even the private hospitals who get either tax exemptions or medicare/medicaid payments (even the Catholics!).  Contact your local witch-doctor, or voodoo practitioner.

[guido911]

More accurately would be the condition that if you don't want to buy health insurance, fine, you get no access to the health care system that has been so heavily built by the other taxpayers - and YES, even the private hospitals who get either tax exemptions or medicare/medicaid payments (even the Catholics!).  Contact your local witch-doctor, or voodoo practitioner.

Wow. "If you don't pay for something, you don't get use it." Now you are talking my language.

And as for what's "more" accurate about that funny ad, you missed.

[guido911]

Since the Obamacare thread is lengthy, I thought I would put this story in this thread. I do not know much about the source, but the story is supported.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-obamas-affordable-care-act-will-cost-consumers-2012-6#ixzz1zC54X0Sw

[nathanm]

More like "I wish to push the cost of the gum I'll buy later on everyone else." "OK, the tax on that will be 15 cents." The penalty is laughably low, and even more so on the employer's side, at least compared to the cost of buying even high deductible insurance.

FWIW, I'm seriously considering getting all my health care on a nice island in the Caribbean. It's far cheaper. Lucky me that I can afford the plane ticket.

[carltonplace]

Some people, especially the young, consider themselves "healthy" and figure the cost of insurance is unnecessary. Kinda of a gamble. Then there is EMTALA. Also, there are wealthy people who don't need it or pay out of pocket.

In a way I want to see how this plays out. Stop the litigation, interference, and give this a chance.

I didn't have health insurance when I was young, but not because I didn't want it. My employer did not offer it and COBRA plans were $900 per month. I opted to take my chances though I still ended up in the ER with monthly bills after one accident or another. I think the young do want a health insurance plan that still allows them to eat and pay their rent. I will capitulate on the wealthy that can pay for a liver translplant out of pocket.

[dbacks fan]

If I understand this correctly, if you are a single adult and you don't have health insurance, your mandate fine penalty tax is $95.00 or 1% of your salary for the year. If you salary is $25,000/year your additional tax is $250.00. They will probably just tell you "Sign over a weeks paycheck, and we'll call it even." No one is going to be paying the base tax, it's all going to be the 1% of your salary.

[Cats Cats Cats]

If I understand this correctly, if you are a single adult and you don't have health insurance, your mandate fine penalty tax is $95.00 or 1% of your salary for the year. If you salary is $25,000/year your additional tax is $250.00. They will probably just tell you "Sign over a weeks paycheck, and we'll call it even." No one is going to be paying the base tax, it's all going to be the 1% of your salary.

Consumer penalties: Part of the controversy surrounding health care reform was that the law would mandate coverage for all Americans on pain of penalties. Those penalties will be tiered and rise over a three-year period that kicks off in 2014, according to the National Association of Consumer Protection:

2014: Families––$285 or 1 percent of total household income, whichever is lesser. Individual adults––$95.
2015: Families––$975 or 2 percent of income, whichever is lesser. Individual adults––$325.
2016: Families––$2,085 or 2.5 percent of income, whichever is lesser. Individual adults––$695.

If you're not covered by your employer, you'll have to pick from a list of government-mandated health insurance packages (they'll be called "exchanges", with options for individuals and businesses provided at the state level). Some exceptions do apply, including low-income families who can prove financial hardship.


http://www.businessinsider.com/what-obamas-affordable-care-act-will-cost-consumers-2012-6#ixzz1zD6LWVNA

[RecycleMichael]

If you're not covered by your employer, you'll have to pick from a list of government-mandated health insurance packages (they'll be called "exchanges", with options for individuals and businesses provided at the state level). Some exceptions do apply, including low-income families who can prove financial hardship.

That is the center of this whole effort. There will be some new health insurance plans that everybody who currently doesn't have any insurance will have. If your employer offers you insurance, you won't be affected. When all the uninsured are insured, the people will start taking better care of themselves by not waiting till they need an emergency room. Prescription prices and new lower costs health care will benefit all of us.

I am tired of paying high medical bills that include me paying for the uninsured. I would think that fiscal conservatives would embrace any plan that would lower the costs for most Americans.

[Cats Cats Cats]

No thanks, I don't want to have kids.  Ok, the tax on that will be $5 a year
No thanks, I don't want to have a mortgage.  Ok, the tax on that will be $10 a year
No thanks, I don't want to eat corn.  Ok, the tax on that is $4 a year

[TheArtist]

Just as a slight aside.  You may have noticed the Sullivan ads from the Opthamologists and wondering what that was about.   In a nutshell the Opthamologists want to make it more expensive and difficult for many people to get help with their eyes.  Optometrists, I happen to live with one, In Oklahoma are highly trained and prescribe some medications for eye conditions and even perform some minor surgeries "like removing a metal filing from your eye from a work accident", they do all kinds of tests for things like Diabeties, etc.  Essentially, for many many cases its more convenient, and less costly, to go to your local optometrist for routine eye exams/check-ups and problems than to go to a hospital and see an opthamologist.  They are also many times easier to find since there are so many optometrist offices and cab act as a "first responder" to any eye trouble/accident or conditon.  The bill Sullivan wants to pass would make it illegal for an optometrist to call themselves a eye doctor, and I also think the bill would not allow them to bill for medicade which would in many cases, especially rural ones, pretty much take away much of an optometrists livelihood.

BUT the Opthamologists, make a lot of money, and saw a way to get more of the pie, so they donate to Sullivan to have him screw the Optometrists along with you the general public and indeed the insurance companies.   Was one reason we were volunteering for the Bridenstine campaingn, doing the phone banks, house meet and greet meetings, etc.

Back to the healthcare debate.....    What I have learned from living with someone in the medical field is that there is a lot of crappy politics out there that also drive up our medical costs and actually make preventative care more costly and difficult!  It's frustrating and sad really.

[AquaMan]

Charlie? Surely you see the difference. Are you just trying to be funny?

We all don't have to pay for your failure to produce children if you don't have any children, we don't have to pay for your housing if you don't secure a mortgage and we don't have to pay extra if you don't eat corn. (Though you really should eat your corn.)

But if you fail to secure insurance and fall catastrophically ill, the rest of us do have to pay for your folly. If you fail to buy insurance and smoke cigarettes, eat so much you're morbidly fat and have early onset diabetes, the rest of us have to pay more for our insurance to cover your excesses. The alternative would be for the rest of us to practice tough love by refusing you medical care when you try to go to the emergency room without insurance, but we're not that kind of society. We suck it up, pay the extra and know its the right thing to do.

Its like being invited to a pot luck dinner and bringing nothing but a good appetite, then suing the others for making you sick.

[AquaMan]

Just as a slight aside.  You may have noticed the Sullivan ads from the Opthamologists and wondering what that was about.   In a nutshell the Opthamologists want to make it more expensive and difficult for many people to get help with their eyes.  Optometrists, I happen to live with one, In Oklahoma are highly trained and prescribe some medications for eye conditions and even perform some minor surgeries "like removing a metal filing from your eye from a work accident", they do all kinds of tests for things like Diabeties, etc.  Essentially, for many many cases its more convenient, and less costly, to go to your local optometrist for routine eye exams/check-ups and problems than to go to a hospital and see an opthamologist.  They are also many times easier to find since there are so many optometrist offices and cab act as a "first responder" to any eye trouble/accident or conditon.  The bill Sullivan wants to pass would make it illegal for an optometrist to call themselves a eye doctor, and I also think the bill would not allow them to bill for medicade which would in many cases, especially rural ones, pretty much take away much of an optometrists livelihood.

BUT the Opthamologists, make a lot of money, and saw a way to get more of the pie, so they donate to Sullivan to have him screw the Optometrists along with you the general public and indeed the insurance companies.   Was one reason we were volunteering for the Bridenstine campaingn, doing the phone banks, house meet and greet meetings, etc.

Back to the healthcare debate.....    What I have learned from living with someone in the medical field is that there is a lot of crappy politics out there that also drive up our medical costs and actually make preventative care more costly and difficult!  It's frustrating and sad really.

Yeah, I was aware of that little subplot. I have gone to both Opthamalogists and Optometrists for different reasons. What you say is true about everyday eye emergencies and measuring for glasses. But Opthamologists are eye doctors and have more training and more certifications to hang that shingle out.  It seems they would want to elevate and protect their industry. If there is little to be gained by getting the MD designation I'm sure fewer would go to the trouble to get it. Eventually everyone would just go for Physicians Assistant.

An EMSA paramedic can give you a life saving procedure that involves cutting your body, but if you have the time wouldn't you rather have a doctor do it?

[TheArtist]

No thanks, I don't want to have kids.  Ok, the tax on that will be $5 a year
No thanks, I don't want to have a mortgage.  Ok, the tax on that will be $10 a year
No thanks, I don't want to eat corn.  Ok, the tax on that is $4 a year

The difference is that you don't have to have or won't absolutely need any of those things.  Most, by far, WILL absolutely HAVE to have and need medical care and if lots of people don't have insurance and help pay in, they are trying to gamble that they can put the higher risk of paying, on those who are already paying. 

[guido911]

Just as a slight aside.  You may have noticed the Sullivan ads from the Opthamologists and wondering what that was about.   In a nutshell the Opthamologists want to make it more expensive and difficult for many people to get help with their eyes.  Optometrists, I happen to live with one, In Oklahoma are highly trained and prescribe some medications for eye conditions and even perform some minor surgeries "like removing a metal filing from your eye from a work accident", they do all kinds of tests for things like Diabeties, etc.  Essentially, for many many cases its more convenient, and less costly, to go to your local optometrist for routine eye exams/check-ups and problems than to go to a hospital and see an opthamologist.  They are also many times easier to find since there are so many optometrist offices and cab act as a "first responder" to any eye trouble/accident or conditon.  The bill Sullivan wants to pass would make it illegal for an optometrist to call themselves a eye doctor, and I also think the bill would not allow them to bill for medicade which would in many cases, especially rural ones, pretty much take away much of an optometrists livelihood.

BUT the Opthamologists, make a lot of money, and saw a way to get more of the pie, so they donate to Sullivan to have him screw the Optometrists along with you the general public and indeed the insurance companies.   Was one reason we were volunteering for the Bridenstine campaingn, doing the phone banks, house meet and greet meetings, etc.

Back to the healthcare debate.....    What I have learned from living with someone in the medical field is that there is a lot of crappy politics out there that also drive up our medical costs and actually make preventative care more costly and difficult!  It's frustrating and sad really.

If you recall I was questioning this very issue about optometrists and also chiropractors favoring one candidate over the other during the primary. I figured this was part of the problem optometrists would have, whether they are entitled to be called a "doctor" and all. I saw similar territory disputes between orthopedists and podiatrists in Arkansas--although in my opinion podiatry can be a more invasive medical/surgical profession than optometry.