The Supreme Court decision on ObamaCare

[DolfanBob]

We don't consider Dentists Doctor in Thailand! "Hangover 2"

[TheArtist]

Yeah, I was aware of that little subplot. I have gone to both Opthamalogists and Optometrists for different reasons. What you say is true about everyday eye emergencies and measuring for glasses. But Opthamologists are eye doctors and have more training and more certifications to hang that shingle out.  It seems they would want to elevate and protect their industry. If there is little to be gained by getting the MD designation I'm sure fewer would go to the trouble to get it. Eventually everyone would just go for Physicians Assistant.

An EMSA paramedic can give you a life saving procedure that involves cutting your body, but if you have the time wouldn't you rather have a doctor do it?

You don't need to elevate yourself by tearing someone else down who has very good training to do what they do.  I bet you would be very suprised at the qualifications and training that optometrists in Oklahoma get and they do a LOT more and help and see a LOT more medical conditions very adeptly than you might think.  They can DO THEIR JOB! They know MORE than your general practitioner or regular doctor does about eye problems or medical conditions that relate to the eye and often catch things that they miss.  Yet the general practitioner isn't being forbidden from treating minor eye related problems or forbidden from billing medicare in relation to those conditions.  Optometrists won't even get the training anymore for those things if they don't need them.  Heard the story the other day of someone who had just gone to the "doctor" and then the optometrist caught a condition the person had that basically if left untreated, that person could have died within the hour.  Without the training to do what they do, that might not have been caught.  Also, you may not know it but because of Okhlahomas laws which allow for higher training of Optometrists than you find in other states, we have some of the top Optometry schools in the entire WORLD here.

Why go to your general practitioner to have a hangnail "surgery", when you can go to a surgeon who has studied more?  How about if some politician wrote a law that forbade your general practitioner from removing a hangnail, though he is perfectly, even overly qualified and capable, to do so, BUT he is not "as qualified" as the "real" surgeon?  

[Cats Cats Cats]

The difference is that you don't have to have or won't absolutely need any of those things.  Most, by far, WILL absolutely HAVE to have and need medical care and if lots of people don't have insurance and help pay in, they are trying to gamble that they can put the higher risk of paying, on those who are already paying. 

Aquaman, the artist, those are all things those people are currently paying higher taxes for not doing.  Every person who doesn't have kids is paying more in taxes than they would have if the child tax credit didn't exist.  Anyone who doesn't like corn is paying higher taxes than they would if there weren't any corn subsidies.  Anybody who doesn't have a mortgage is helping pay higher taxes to give those that do a tax break.  We already pay higher taxes because of things we don't do.

[AquaMan]

You don't need to elevate yourself by tearing someone else down who has very good training to do what they do.  I bet you would be very suprised at the qualifications and training that optometrists in Oklahoma get and they do a LOT more and help and see a LOT more medical conditions very adeptly than you might think.  They can DO THEIR JOB! They know more than your general practitioner or regular doctor does about eye problems or medical conditions that relate to the eye and often catch things that they miss.  

Why go to your general practitioner to have a hangnail "surgery", when you can go to a surgeon who has studied more?  How about if some politician wrote a law that forbade your general practitioner from removing a hangnail, though he is perfectly, even overly qualified and capable, to do so, BUT he is not "as qualified" as the "real" surgeon?  

Is an Optometrist a Doctor? An MD? Is the term Doctor generic? How many years do each matriculate? Do Opteometrists intern or have residency requirements?

This friction between Optometrists and Opthamologists, between Chiro's, MD's and Osteopaths has been going on since I was a child (who was delivered by an Osteopath btw). There is no need to take it personal. This a professional squabble over money, prestige, insurance and power. Sullivan misjudged and got caught in the crossfire.

[TheArtist]

Aquaman, the artist, those are all things those people are currently paying higher taxes for not doing.  Every person who doesn't have kids is paying more in taxes than they would have if the child tax credit didn't exist.  Anyone who doesn't like corn is paying higher taxes than they would if there weren't any corn subsidies.  Anybody who doesn't have a mortgage is helping pay higher taxes to give those that do a tax break.  We already pay higher taxes because of things we don't do.

So no new news here then lol.

[AquaMan]

Aquaman, the artist, those are all things those people are currently paying higher taxes for not doing.  Every person who doesn't have kids is paying more in taxes than they would have if the child tax credit didn't exist.  Anyone who doesn't like corn is paying higher taxes than they would if there weren't any corn subsidies.  Anybody who doesn't have a mortgage is helping pay higher taxes to give those that do a tax break.  We already pay higher taxes because of things we don't do.

I think that's pretty weak. Those general statements are not universally true anyway. The market interferes. These are real costs of health care that are inflated because some people are not insured yet we must still provide them services. Perhaps you would prefer that we go the tough love route? People dumped off on the curb in front of hospitals to die because they refused to let government interfere with their private choices?

[TheArtist]

Is an Optometrist a Doctor? An MD? Is the term Doctor generic? How many years do each matriculate? Do Opteometrists intern or have residency requirements?

This friction between Optometrists and Opthamologists, between Chiro's, MD's and Osteopaths has been going on since I was a child (who was delivered by an Osteopath btw). There is no need to take it personal. This a professional squabble over money, prestige, insurance and power. Sullivan misjudged and got caught in the crossfire.

I will have Chris answer those questions for you.  I do know that Optometrists intern, have state and national board exams, etc.
 Sullivan would have taken money out of our household.  He would have hurt us financially if he could have.  How could I not take that personally?  He made it personal and we fought back.  

[Cats Cats Cats]

I think that's pretty weak. Those general statements are not universally true anyway. The market interferes. These are real costs of health care that are inflated because some people are not insured yet we must still provide them services. Perhaps you would prefer that we go the tough love route? People dumped off on the curb in front of hospitals to die because they refused to let government interfere with their private choices?

I am trying to show that taxing us for not buying something isn't new.  They just take it from a different pocket.

[guido911]

I am trying to show that taxing us for not buying something isn't new.  They just take it from a different pocket.

Charlie, you automatically win every thread and argument because of your avatar.

[DolfanBob]

Charlie, you automatically win every thread and argument because of your avatar.

Ok clue me in on that avatar. Am I missing something?

[TheArtist]

Is an Optometrist a Doctor? An MD? Is the term Doctor generic? How many years do each matriculate? Do Opteometrists intern or have residency requirements?

This friction between Optometrists and Opthamologists, between Chiro's, MD's and Osteopaths has been going on since I was a child (who was delivered by an Osteopath btw). There is no need to take it personal. This a professional squabble over money, prestige, insurance and power. Sullivan misjudged and got caught in the crossfire.

Via Chris....  Basically, optometrists are primary eye care doctors. They are trained and licensed to test vision, prescribe eye glasses/contact lenses, manage eye diseases like diabetes and glaucoma, and much more. Ophthalmologists are primarily surgeons. Optometrists are doctors who have graduated from a four year undergraduate program, and then a four year graduate program entirely in eye care. Residency and fellowship programs are optional for optometrists who want to specialize in certain areas of eye care. Ophthalmologists have attended medical school, where they get at most two to three weeks of exposure to eye care. They then go into a three year residency focused on eye surgery. Optometrists and opthalmologists are trained differently and are intended to serve different purposes.

Via moi... its interesting to note that Opthamologists often intern under Optometrists.  Also, in rural areas, there may not be an Opthamologist within 300 miles, but there are Optometrists.  Denying people the care that Optometrists can offer will only serve to make healthcare more difficlult and expensive (why are "conservatives" pushing for this?).   Also, why would an Opthamologist want to "lower" themselves to doing relatively minor things like plucking a stray eyelash "which is considered surgery by insurance companies"?  

[guido911]

Optometry practice defined by Oklahoma statute:

A. The practice of optometry is defined to be the science and art of examining the human eye and measurement of the powers of vision by the employment of any means, including the use or furnishing of any self-testing device, the use of any computerized or automatic refracting device, the use of pharmaceutical agents, the diagnosis of conditions of the human eye, and the correcting and relief of ocular abnormalities by means including but not limited to prescribing and adaptation of lenses, contact lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, prisms and the employment of vision therapy or orthoptics for the aid thereof, low vision rehabilitation, laser surgery procedures, excluding retina, laser in-situ keratomileusis (LASIK), and cosmetic lid surgery. The practice of optometry is further defined to be nonlaser surgery procedures as authorized by the Oklahoma Board of Examiners in Optometry, pursuant to rules promulgated under the Administrative Procedures Act.

B. The practice of optometry shall also include the prescribing of dangerous drugs and controlled dangerous substances for all schedules specified in the Uniform Controlled Dangerous Substances Act except Schedules I and II for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment of ocular abnormalities. The practice of optometry shall not include the dispensing of drugs but may include the dispensing of professional samples to patients.

C. Optometrists shall be certified by the Board of Examiners in Optometry prior to administering drugs, prescribing drugs, or performing laser or nonlaser surgery procedures.

D. Nothing in this title shall be construed as allowing any agency, board, or other entity of this state other than the Board of Examiners in Optometry to determine what constitutes the practice of optometry.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=439178

Interestingly, this is the definition of the practice of allopathic medicine:

A. Every person shall be regarded as practicing allopathic medicine within the meaning and provisions of this act, who shall append to his or her name the letters "M.D.", "Physician" or any other title, letters or designation which represent that such person is a physician, or who shall for a fee or any form of compensation diagnose and/or treat disease, injury or deformity of persons in this state by any allopathic legend drugs, surgery, manual, or mechanical treatment unless otherwise authorized by law.

[Emphasis added].
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=95745

My only "dispute", if you want to call it that, is an optometrist (or chiropractor) calling themselves "doctor" can be misleading to the everyday consumer/patient. These professionals are trained no question, but in my opinion are not a professional equal to an MD, DO, Dentist (except in Thailand). To flip Artist's point, an optometrist who would attempt to draw that comparison would be, in his words, elevating themselves by tearing down the skills of the others.

[nathanm]

No thanks, I don't want to have kids.  Ok, the tax on that will be $5 a year

The tax on that is $3000-$5000 a year for most people.

No thanks, I don't want to have a mortgage.  Ok, the tax on that will be $10 a year

The tax on that would be around $2,000 for me next year.

No thanks, I don't want to eat corn.  Ok, the tax on that is $4 a year

There is no special tax favor foregone by not eating corn..as far as I am aware. (Although it is highly unlikely that there is a living person in the US who consumes absolutely no corn or products made from corn in any given year)

[Cats Cats Cats]

The tax on that is $3000-$5000 a year for most people.

The tax on that would be around $2,000 for me next year.

There is no special tax favor foregone by not eating corn..as far as I am aware. (Although it is highly unlikely that there is a living person in the US who consumes absolutely no corn or products made from corn in any given year)

Corn get a huge government subsidy.  For each corn product you ingest (or put in your car) your benefit increases.

[nathanm]

If "you" know that "you" will have to negotiate a final price, you start high to get what "you" want/need when done negotiating.

That's got nothing to do with it. I'm not comparing rack rate that nobody who has insurance pays, but the actual price paid by the insurer to the doctor, hospital, and the rest, on average.

We pay more for basically everything. Hospital stays are the worst, which is why we send people home sooner than almost any other developed country (and many developing nations). This pushes the cost of nursing onto family members, who may well not be able to afford the loss of income from taking leave from work to nurse their sick relative. Few insurance plans pay (much) for home health aides these days.

It might be tolerable if we got measurably better outcomes for our extra healthcare dollars, but we don't. We pay more and get nothing.