You did not do that!

[carltonplace]

You're not getting it, or worse, you are getting it.

We all are reliant on some degree of infrastructure, and as a society, we choose how that is supported.  The infrastructure, and workforce is dependent on the innovators, entrepreneurs, and creative spirit of individuals, not the other way around.

To say that Steve Jobs or Henry Ford owes all of their success to the government and social mechanisms around them is disgusting.  To say that I owe my success to my employer is disgusting, and knowing him, he would feel the same way, otherwise I would not work for him.

Successful innovators give far more to society than society gives to them.  They are inspiration, and motivation to everyone around them.  They are income and security to those who work with them, and they are the support for the communities, governments and schools that surround them.  To say "That's not yours" is collectivist and fraudulent.

I have owned my own business. I could not have been successful without the people that worked for me, that worked hard for me with a sense of urgency and an eye on the customer and their needs. I was not alone, I did not do it all by myself.

Now I work for a giant corporation and my corporation has seen millions of dollars in new revenue, millions in cost avoidance and milliions in recovered revenue due to my efforts. The corporation and the CEO didn't due these things...I did them without provocation. We are in it together.

[AquaMan]

It seems to me that I remember a statement attributed to Bhudda. "When the student arrives, the teaching begins". The problem is, 'spar thinks he's the Bhudda!

Concentrate on putting your stuff on posters and bumper stickers till you start to get a feel for reality. You can make loads from the idiocracy that love that stuff.

[Gaspar]

Good God!  You people forge your own chains.

[Gaspar]

I have owned my own business. I could not have been successful without the people that worked for me, that worked hard for me with a sense of urgency and an eye on the customer and their needs. I was not alone, I did not do it all by myself.

Now I work for a giant corporation and my corporation has seen millions of dollars in new revenue, millions in cost avoidance and milliions in recovered revenue due to my efforts. The corporation and the CEO didn't due these things...I did them without provocation. We are in it together.

Then you should see a great deal of advancement for your efforts, or I assume you will move on.

[Conan71]

The country was NOT founded on those things - it was founded on a strong effort by MANY people to break loose from Britain and work together to build a country.  Come on, Conan... don't go all Bill O'Reilly on us...


You picked probably the worst example you could have chosen - right there in your example, you have proven that there is no truly substantial "rugged individualism" - your example shows the effort starting with those FOUR guys!  Not an individual.  Followed immediately by a network of dealers, mechanics, sales people, and a whole host of what, by your claim, were superfluous people with no real value.  Another one of those "welfare statements"?

Here is a timeline.  William and Arthur made the first bike in 1903.  William AND Arthur.  Two years later they started hiring people - probably mostly worthless in the "rugged individualist" mode, but for some reason, they did it anyway.  Can't imagine C.H. Lang having much effect on the overall rugged individualist effort, but he opened a dealership in Chicago anyway...1904.  He did sell one of the first 3 bikes made...

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/H-D_History/history_1900s.jsp?locale=en_US


And we have an early dealership here in town - Myers-Duren.  Been around since about '14, if memory serves.

Trust me, I'm quite well versed in the history of Harley-Davidson, I have a library of books and original factory documents which would make your head spin.  I made a living doing nut and bolt correct restorations for four years and have a side business dealing in vintage parts to this day.

Were it not for the innovation of the Davidson brothers and Bill Harley, H-D would have never gotten off the ground and there would not have been an opportunity for all those dealers.  The dealer network came about by the founders criss-crossing the country on their motorcycles signing up anyone they could to sell their motorcycles.  There's most certainly a network of things which contributed to the success of H-D in light of the fact there were a few hundred motorcycle companies which came and went prior to WWII and H-D stood alone in the big twin market after 1953. 

Obama makes a completely vacuous point in trying to justify why the wealthiest in this country owe something to the rest of us.

Our government owes it to us to curtail it's growth, cut it's waste, and quit doing paybacks on the backs of the tax payer rather than needing to raise tax rates.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Obama makes a completely vacuous point in trying to justify why the wealthiest in this country owe something to the rest of us.

Our government owes it to us to curtail it's growth, cut it's waste, and quit doing paybacks on the backs of the tax payer rather than needing to raise tax rates.

Everybody owes everybody in this country.  And quite possibly, in many other points around the world.


And yes, the govt. does owe it to us to curtail it's growth - and regardless of all the other issues I have with Obama, that growth has slowed to the lowest in modern history, the excess of what is taken in versus what is spent is half - just pretty much according to what he said it would/should be, and the sad reality is the the tax rates before Bush cuts were still the best bargains in the world and they were NOT giving us the massive increases in debt we enjoy today.  At some time, even the most irrational among us must come to the realization that these cuts are a large part of the problems we have today and will disappear unless we want to be Greece.  And there is no way to "spending cut" ourselves out of that debt.


What vintage?  Shovels, or just older?

[AquaMan]

You guys are hopeless.

Ideas (innovation) are the culmination of forces occurring all over the world at the same time. Where they intersect and at what time determines what innovation occurs. You can't give one person all the credit. I guess you can if it suits your politics but its foolhardy. Didn't you ever watch NOVA? They have a wonderful series that ran a few years back that showed how different revelations at different times were all linked to each other to produce today's "inventions". If you think for a moment that the computer would never have appeared without the rugged individualism, creative genius, entrepreneurial skills, and spirit of one person or even one group...you are delusional.

[Conan71]

Everybody owes everybody in this country.  And quite possibly, in many other points around the world.


And yes, the govt. does owe it to us to curtail it's growth - and regardless of all the other issues I have with Obama, that growth has slowed to the lowest in modern history, the excess of what is taken in versus what is spent is half - just pretty much according to what he said it would/should be, and the sad reality is the the tax rates before Bush cuts were still the best bargains in the world and they were NOT giving us the massive increases in debt we enjoy today.  At some time, even the most irrational among us must come to the realization that these cuts are a large part of the problems we have today and will disappear unless we want to be Greece.  And there is no way to "spending cut" ourselves out of that debt.


What vintage?  Shovels, or just older?

Knuckle, Pan, & Flat primarily 1936 to 1965, though I've dealt in JD and FD models as early as WWI.  The current project I'm culling parts for is a 1948 125S two-stroke.  My dream acquisition is one of the opposed sport twins from the late teens/early 20's.

[Gaspar]

The President's ultimate goal by making statements like this is to make success a defensible action.  He is facing a tough election against a candidate who has been successful in business.  Further more, the President is pushing a tax plan that will affect successful business owners.  His rhetoric must push forward the idea that his track record of failure is as much his fault as a successful person's track record of success. He must make the people believe that they are suffering, not because his policies have staved off recovery, but because successful people have "stolen" the fruits of others' labor.  As he moves in this direction, it makes it easier to point at people like Romney and say "Yeah, like that guy!"

He's shoring up his foundations.

The natural effort of every individual to better his own condition is so powerful that it is alone, and without any assistance, capable not only of carrying on the society to wealth and prosperity, but of surmounting 100 impertinent obstructions with which the folly of human laws too often encumbers its operations. – Adam Smith

[carltonplace]

Or

its time to roll back the Tax cuts and pay for what we borrowed. We need to pay for the wars we have been waging for 10 years.

[AquaMan]

I think you are making this stuff up for fun. No one could believe such preposterous gibberish.

Here, let me try....

"Romney wants to create a bifurcated economy that resembles a feudal system of gentry who only owe allegiance to the oligarchy offset by a subjugated working class that must be domesticated by use of Soma type anti-depressants that are fed through local restaurants and bars. Drones may be used to spray Soma in hard to access areas. To do this he must remove all belief in upward mobility to a middle class or an upper class by creating a series of secure, walled off communities that require photo id's for admittance thus limiting interface between the two classes. He of course has said as much by insisting that corporations are human, money donations to upper class political campaigns and tax returns are invisible to the lower class and the utterance of the word socialism will be punished by internment at McDonalds at the fry station for a period of years."

[Gaspar]

The best response to the president's words I've seen so far.

The President recently suggested that a central government – not individuals – deserves the credit for building successful businesses. This sentiment makes for terrible economics, but also reveals a confused morality.

In a free community, everyone co-operates by voluntarily offering unique gifts: some invent, some invest, others labor, or sell while customers reward the best producers and providers by buying their products and services. Government has a critical role to play in this process: establishing rules that enable open competition and securing peace and order with courts, defense forces, first responders, teachers, infrastructure, and a safety net for the most vulnerable.

Government helps create the space for innovation and prosperity, but government does not fill that space – and it should not try to, as the last few years have shown us. Only free citizens create things that improve our lives. A free economy and strong communities are the best means to reward effort with justice, to promote upward mobility, and to build solidarity among citizens. The President's vision of a government-centered society – reflected in both his rhetoric and his failed policies – belittles fair rewards for labor and enterprise. To renew prosperity and rebuild our communities, we must recommit to the American Idea of freedom and justice for all.--Rep. Paul Ryan

[AquaMan]

Dang. There's two of you. Must be a conspiracy or a movement of some kind. How'd I miss this...Are you like a Representative in the alternative real republic government? A senator?

[heironymouspasparagus]

The President's ultimate goal by making statements like this is to make success a defensible action.  He is facing a tough election against a candidate who has been successful in business.  Further more, the President is pushing a tax plan that will affect successful business owners.  His rhetoric must push forward the idea that his track record of failure is as much his fault as a successful person's track record of success. He must make the people believe that they are suffering, not because his policies have staved off recovery, but because successful people have "stolen" the fruits of others' labor.  As he moves in this direction, it makes it easier to point at people like Romney and say "Yeah, like that guy!"

He's shoring up his foundations.

Sound bites galore.  Here is "The Script" all rolled up into one...with no elaboration, explanation, or even just a touch of reality to go along with.

Would that it were that simple.  Tiny little nibbles with no substance.  All concocted with the intent to distort and mislead.  

[nathanm]

not because his policies have staved off recovery, but because successful people have "stolen" the fruits of others' labor.

I'm glad you don't think that government policy is the only thing holding back recovery. That would clearly be delusional.

However, Romney and his ilk do steal the fruits of others' labor when they borrow unsustainably large amounts of money in the name of the companies they have purchased to pay themselves large dividends, thus forcing the company into bankruptcy and leaving the creditors unpaid. Funny how it's good business when Romney's targets were made unable to pay their bills, but if a person gets in over their head it's some kind of moral failing. The double standard is...disturbing at best.