You did not do that!

[heironymouspasparagus]

It seems that in both the US and Japanese market the these cars fit an important niche, but without rebates and incentives, they do not perform as well as conventional vehicles.  Government market manipulation has caused an increase in demand for these vehicles.

I will concede that government (mostly in Japan) investment in tax and rebate programs has increased the sales of these vehicles.  You are correct.

The US tax credits ended October 1, 2007.  That's 5 years ago.  Toyota is currently selling at about a 250,000 per year rate here in the US.  Without tax credits - an increase every year since it was introduced.  So actual government manipulation in the US has not been a factor in any way for an eternity in the automotive world.


I have a close relative who has two Prius' and is rabid in their advocacy.  And another who has had a string of Camry's and Corolla's and just traded about a year ago for a Prius (Likes all 3 models).  Cost comparison between the Prius and Corolla (most similar) show that the Prius will never catch up to a similar Corolla in terms of cost per mile over 100,000 miles.  And if you take it out to 250,000 miles, with a warranty replacement of batteries in the Prius, they seem to come very close, but no compelling reason to buy a Prius over a similar Corolla, except the 'political' reasons.  But if you have to BUY a set of batteries (have heard estimates of $1,800 to 4,000 - who knows...??) then the Prius lags again.

Look and feel??  Well, that is why some people buy BMW and some buy a pickup truck.  The Prius is so close to the Corolla in both areas that I can't really differentiate between them - they feel the same to me, except for some engine noise (very low in Corolla) and like all cars today, they look like a variation on the jelly bean.

But then, I wouldn't waste the money on a Lexus, BMW, or Cadillac, either.

[RecycleMichael]

I love the ride in my Cadillac.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I love the ride in my Cadillac.

Want a '99 DeVille??  Reasonable.  Very small anti-freeze leak.  (People familiar with NorthStar carp engines will know what that means.)

[Conan71]

The US tax credits ended October 1, 2007.  That's 5 years ago.  Toyota is currently selling at about a 250,000 per year rate here in the US.  Without tax credits - an increase every year since it was introduced.  So actual government manipulation in the US has not been a factor in any way for an eternity in the automotive world.


I have a close relative who has two Prius' and is rabid in their advocacy.  And another who has had a string of Camry's and Corolla's and just traded about a year ago for a Prius (Likes all 3 models).  Cost comparison between the Prius and Corolla (most similar) show that the Prius will never catch up to a similar Corolla in terms of cost per mile over 100,000 miles.  And if you take it out to 250,000 miles, with a warranty replacement of batteries in the Prius, they seem to come very close, but no compelling reason to buy a Prius over a similar Corolla, except the 'political' reasons.  But if you have to BUY a set of batteries (have heard estimates of $1,800 to 4,000 - who knows...??) then the Prius lags again.

Look and feel??  Well, that is why some people buy BMW and some buy a pickup truck.  The Prius is so close to the Corolla in both areas that I can't really differentiate between them - they feel the same to me, except for some engine noise (very low in Corolla) and like all cars today, they look like a variation on the jelly bean.

But then, I wouldn't waste the money on a Lexus, BMW, or Cadillac, either.

Picture I snapped in Pueblo last year

[Gaspar]

Picture I snapped in Pueblo last year

Haven't done the math lately.  How long do you have to drive one now to make up for the additional cost compared to a typical Honda CR-V, Scion, or a VW Jetta?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Corolla gets about 31 to 34 mpg (that's what I get driving one).  Prius I am told gets 42 by one owner and 40 to 42 by the other.  So, let's say 10 mpg better.  At $3.50 per gallon, that's about 0.10 cents per mile for Corolla.  And 0.083 cents per mile for Prius.  Saves 3.47 cents per mile.

Cost is about 13,000 more for Prius ($29,000 versus $16,000) as numbers they have both given me based on their purchases.  I calculate 374,639 to break even - not even getting ahead...

Who (other than me) keeps a vehicle to 200,000 miles let alone 374,000???  Suppose you do go to 200,000 - then the extra 174,000 is the extra cost for Prius, or $6037 more to own the Prius just on equipment plus fuel cost for that life.  (I have no valid info about maintenance, but the tires, batteries, etc should not be much different between the two.)


As contrast, my old diesel pickup - $9,000 to buy, 250,000 miles of ownership by me (bought used, of course).

The truck cost has been 0.036 cents per mile.  Added fuel cost for 200,000 miles - to keep it similar to cars - 0.1875 cents per mile, or about 10 cents per mile more than Corolla.  Or about $20,000 more than driving a Corolla in 200k miles.  Subtract the difference in cost (16,000 versus 9,000) and it cost me about 13,000 more to drive the truck.  And now, I still have an engine that is good for about another 300,000+ miles (there are almost 300,000 miles on it now), and I don't have to spend another $16,000 for each 200,000 miles, so total, I am likely to SAVE about $19,000 over the life of one truck versus the lives of 3 Corollas.  And it is much higher savings if buying Prius - around $35,000.  Yeah, the instantaneous thrill of putting $100 of fuel in the tank each time I fill up can be exciting, but the I look at the long term and would rather keep that extra $19k...or $35k...!!

That bumper sticker is propaganda and sounds nice, but when one actually does the numbers, it just doesn't work.  And yes, the Corolla and Prius can both be bought used, like I did with the truck, but the results may actually get worse, 'cause the resale is so high for a car with even as much as 100k miles, there is gonna be a "squeeze" effect on price versus miles achieved before replacement is done.

Plus, I can tow a ton of weight - about 6 tons actually - and hook up to my 'home' and go visit anywhere in the continental US I decide to go, and have "my stuff" with me all the time.  And no, I don't help anyone move!

Good reason for me to buy another one of those trucks for SWMBO to drive.

[AquaMan]

That's a good analysis but it ignores the more practical aspects for most city drivers. Things like parking your dually(?) diesel in a hospital parking garage and backing up the line while doing so. Things like skidding around on slick streets unless you're 4wd or loaded up with weight in the back. Things like taking friends out for a night on the town or travelling to OKC for a family visit. Or pulling up for a job interview.

Then consider that the rest of the vehicle does not age as well as the power plant in those trucks. The upholstery, accessories, plastics all tend to be designed for a lot less than the 300,000 miles the engine lasts. Transmission work is quite costly too.

IOW, for your lifestyle you may find it perfectly suitable and certainly more economical. But cosmetically, aesthetically and for use in everyday tasks it may seem overkill for most city dwellers. I don't blame anyone for desiring the quiet acceleration, the novelty and the "look at me" qualities of a Prius. I also prefer the Corolla or Camry but different strokes.

To only use the economic determinants in buying transportation would probably put us all in diesel vehicles and seriously depress auto dealerships.

[Gaspar]

don't blame anyone for desiring the quiet acceleration, the novelty and the "look at me" qualities of a Prius. I also prefer the Corolla or Camry but different strokes.
.

Insert South Park reference.

[RecycleMichael]

Corolla gets about 31 to 34 mpg (that's what I get driving one).  Prius I am told gets 42 by one owner and 40 to 42 by the other.  So, let's say 10 mpg better.  At $3.50 per gallon, that's about 0.10 cents per mile for Corolla.  And 0.083 cents per mile for Prius.  Saves 3.47 cents per mile.

Your methodology is correct, but your numbers are flawed.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31767&id=32181

The 2012 Toyota Prius Hybrid is rated 51 MPG city. The 2012 Toyota Corolla is rated 26 MPG.

The difference is 25 MPG. According to the website, the annual fuel cost for the Prius is $1,050 and for the Corolla is $1,800. That is $750 a year or around $15 a week.

At Jim Norton Toyota, the Prius sells for $25,000 and the Corolla sells for $18,000.

$7,000 difference and the savings are $7,500.

The Corolla is the better deal on paper unless keep the car for 9+ years. Resell value is not part of this formula.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's a good analysis but it ignores the more practical aspects for most city drivers. Things like parking your dually(?) diesel in a hospital parking garage and backing up the line while doing so. Things like skidding around on slick streets unless you're 4wd or loaded up with weight in the back. Things like taking friends out for a night on the town or travelling to OKC for a family visit. Or pulling up for a job interview.

Then consider that the rest of the vehicle does not age as well as the power plant in those trucks. The upholstery, accessories, plastics all tend to be designed for a lot less than the 300,000 miles the engine lasts. Transmission work is quite costly too.

IOW, for your lifestyle you may find it perfectly suitable and certainly more economical. But cosmetically, aesthetically and for use in everyday tasks it may seem overkill for most city dwellers. I don't blame anyone for desiring the quiet acceleration, the novelty and the "look at me" qualities of a Prius. I also prefer the Corolla or Camry but different strokes.

To only use the economic determinants in buying transportation would probably put us all in diesel vehicles and seriously depress auto dealerships.

Non-dually - no reason to have it, other than a very slight increase in stability in high wind conditions.  And it decreases the actual traction available at the road contact point for the back axle. (Twice the tire surface area means half the friction).  I always back into parking places, even when driving the car - always best way to park.  Can get tight.  7,000 lbs split equally front to rear means I skid less than a car - more pounds pressure per square inch on each tire than my car (or a Corolla).

Friends get to ride in back seat - kind of like getting into a two door coupe, but with more room.  Job interview?  Well, if they don't like what I drive - you know what they can do...

Transmission was done about 50,000 miles ago - it's Dodge, so what can ya say - but this was done well, and I expect it to go for the duration at this point.  Transmission Clinics in Broken Arrow did the work.  Excellent.  Blumenthal's in OKC is also exceptional.  I should get at least 600,000 miles on the engine before rebuild.  Then let Blumenthals at it, and it would be good for another half million...

Rest of car is Dodge, so yeah, trim stuff is normal Big 3 Detroit carp.  And as it ages, it gets harder to find the parts, since they are idiots.  I feel about them a whole lot like I feel about Whirlpool (from previous posts).  When I have to buy a part, I buy two - or 3 if they are cheap.  Takes some planning and forethought to keep Detroit carp going these days.  Example - right now, am looking for a radio speaker that is obsolete, and the hole it fits in doesn't quite match the aftermarket speakers available.  Which gives me a project to fit it in that I don't really need now.

Cosmetically, when the paint gets bad enough, I will spend the money to repaint.  Given the current condition, that will be about another 5 to 7 years.  One comment about maintenance - over my entire life of car ownership, I have always mentally "allocated" about $100 per month to maintenance - oil, filters, tires, transmissions, front end replacement, engine rebuild, etc.  And never in 45 years or so have I averaged even close to that - haven't calculated exactly, but would be surprised if it is much over $60 a month.  Transmission example - $2,000 to rebuild - have driven almost 2 years on it now, so $100 per month is about "expired".  Since I will get another 250,000 miles or more on it, that covers the next 10 years at $0 per month.  So, the tranny really is costing about - 120 months (next 10 yr) plus last 24 or 144 months - $13.88 per month.  Tires are the biggest expense - they run probably $25 per month, since I use a pretty good tire (Michelin LTX - 70,000 mile)

New car payment is what - about $500 per month?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Your methodology is correct, but your numbers are flawed.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31767&id=32181

The 2012 Toyota Prius Hybrid is rated 51 MPG city. The 2012 Toyota Corolla is rated 26 MPG.

The difference is 25 MPG. According to the website, the annual fuel cost for the Prius is $1,050 and for the Corolla is $1,800. That is $750 a year or around $15 a week.

At Jim Norton Toyota, the Prius sells for $25,000 and the Corolla sells for $18,000.

$7,000 difference and the savings are $7,500.

The Corolla is the better deal on paper unless keep the car for 9+ years. Resell value is not part of this formula.

Ratings are a bunch of smoke and mirrors, so I just use what the family has paid for the cars they own - 2007, 2008 and 2011 Prius' (somewhat dependent on trim levels, too I suspect), and I accept the Prius mileage one of those people told me about, since she drives about like I do.  And I get 30 to 32 driving a Corolla (calculated over about 12,000 miles total driving on 3 different Corollas.)

I keep hearing others I talk to who own Prius about how they get much better than the government guesstimates, but I don't believe them any more than I believe the 51 mpg rating.  And the 2010 Corolla got much better than 26 when I drove it - 30 to 32.  Also, I rented a Camry 4 cyl for a week back in the spring and was astonished when I got 30 mpg on that thing!  The Camry's the family had before were V6 and the best I could ever do with that was about 23!  They are just too uncomfortable for me to sit in.  Contrast to the Chevy Impala 2011 I rented - even MORE uncomfortable somehow - and city was around 18 mpg.  Highway I could get 22 to 23.  Rating estimates say town should be worse, but highway better.  Go figure....

None of these people have kept a car more than about 4 - 5 years in their life (except for the one who still has his 71 Honda Civic), so don't know about the end game of driving it forever....I would expect to get 250 to 300k miles on a Corolla if I were driving it.

[nathanm]

I can tell you from experience that the cars I've driven (and the one my SO owns) with the Toyota V6 consume almost precisely the amount of fuel the EPA says they should. I don't remember the Camry doing over about 26 in town with the 4 cylinder, but it's been a couple of years since I've driven one. By contrast, the Lincoln MKZ with the V6 (not sure if it was a 3.0 or 3.5, whatever they put in the 2012) got about 19mpg combined while I had it for about 16 hours.

I vaguely remember the 4 cylinder 2012 RAV4 got around 27 combined when I borrowed one from Jim Norton for a few days earlier this year.

[guido911]

[AquaMan]

I drove a 2008 Corolla about 30,000 miles one year doing lab deliveries. I drove it hard in a combination of city and highway driving. It routinely got 28-30mpg no matter how hard I drove or how much the anemic little air conditioner had to work.

People just loved to see me coming and often waved their crooked little fingers at me.

[nathanm]

I see someone's been hitting the sauce a little heavy today.