Harry Reid ups the ante

[Teatownclown]

I heard Harry Reid has been beating His wife the last 10 years. I don't have proof but he needs to prove to us that he does not in fact beat his wife. Burden of proof is of course on good ol Harry.


They were eluding to tax fraud on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight when explaining the reasoning behind Reid's statement. They used the F word.....felony.


Reid's info obviously came from the McCain camp....

[nathanm]

No their brand of religion isn't for me but I can't fault them for their mission work.

I can fault them for being behind the anti-gay policies of the Boy Scouts, though. I can also fault them for spending millions of dollars on Prop 8. I cannot fault them for the good works they do, which I very much appreciate. It's the strings that bother me.

I wonder who in the McCain organization would have had access to the returns and hate Romney enough to try and tank his chances at this late stage. The convention hasn't been held yet, so it's conceivable that Romney could end up not actually being the nominee, but they'd have to put up someone with nearly universal name recognition. It seems a little weird. I haven't paid close attention to Reid over the years, but I don't remember him being an outright liar, so I find it hard to believe the allegation is just made up from whole cloth.

Perhaps wires got crossed and what really happened is that Romney paid zero income tax in 2008 and/or 2009. That wouldn't be too surprising given that most everyone of means had plenty of investment losses to offset any income during that period.

[Teatownclown]

I can fault them for being behind the anti-gay policies of the Boy Scouts, though. I can also fault them for spending millions of dollars on Prop 8. I cannot fault them for the good works they do, which I very much appreciate. It's the strings that bother me.

I wonder who in the McCain organization would have had access to the returns and hate Romney enough to try and tank his chances at this late stage. The convention hasn't been held yet, so it's conceivable that Romney could end up not actually being the nominee, but they'd have to put up someone with nearly universal name recognition. It seems a little weird. I haven't paid close attention to Reid over the years, but I don't remember him being an outright liar, so I find it hard to believe the allegation is just made up from whole cloth.

Perhaps wires got crossed and what really happened is that Romney paid zero income tax in 2008 and/or 2009. That wouldn't be too surprising given that most everyone of means had plenty of investment losses to offset any income during that period.

During the 2008 vetting process by McCain's people they saw 23 years of Romney's returns, I recall. They chose Palin after their review. I imagine someone knows.....Schmidt? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/mccain-romney-tax-returns_b_1726619.html

Hate Romney? Many Christians are prejudiced against him for sure but they won't admit it. More likely, "no honor among thieves" explains the "tanking his chances" theory....

[Conan71]

Remember when churches provided charity and the government governed?  The US government would do well to adopt the LDS welfare model for their own "charitable" works.  LDS encourages independence.  The government aids and abets dependence and helplessness.  It's easy to criticize what you don't understand, Clown, but as long as you rely on Bill Maher for your education, you will continue to spew misinformation on Willard's charity of choice.

I don't care for their brand of religion, but I can't impugn them for the aid and comfort they bring to millions around the globe.

LA Times, 2001, long before Romney's presidential aspirations, so it's hardly a puff piece to placate his critics.  It notes that the LDS had zero interest in Bush's "faith-based initiatives as they rely on self-sufficiency and instill that in the members who rely on their welfare system.

SALT LAKE CITY — It is a compassionate conservative's dream: a community made up of religious people who promote clean living, self-reliance and responsibility.

The Mormon church runs one of the tightest ships in the charity business, funneling millions of dollars worth of goods and services to the needy worldwide.

But when it comes to President Bush's offer to channel government funds through religious charities, the Mormons' unwavering answer is thanks, but no thanks.

"We're neutral. That's not saying we think it's wrong for every organization, but we just don't need it," said Dale Bills, spokesman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"There's nothing the government can provide that the church doesn't already have," said Garth Mangum, economics professor emeritus at the University of Utah and author of the book "The Mormons' War on Poverty."

Dependence on Government Avoided

There's another reason for rejecting the offer: the accountability to and dependence on the government in exchange for the money.

"The church doesn't want the government telling it how to do what the church sees as the church's job," Mangum said.

So while the Mormon example may be the model of a successful religious charity, it is also a model for those who say Bush's plan just won't work.

The White House, for its part, agrees that government funding isn't right for every religious charity.

"Charitable choice ought to be open to all qualified community-serving groups, but not all groups ought to participate. Faith leaders, organizations and communities that perceive the slope as secularizing and slippery ought simply to opt out," said John DiIulio, who directs the new White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.

The Mormon welfare system's services are funded through donations from the church's 12 million members, who fast one day a month and donate the money they would have spent on food to the church to support welfare. The church also requires its members to tithe 10% of their income to support church infrastructure.

The church has always placed an emphasis on self-sufficiency. In its early years in the 19th century, members set up mutual aid systems to help one another make the trek across the Plains and through the mountains to Utah. Once settled in the West, Mormons set up community farms and storehouses.

The system's modern incarnation began in the Great Depression. Today, assistance ranges from help with rent to employment assistance to food and clothing donations.

Local congregational leaders, called bishops, determine recipients' needs. Non-Mormons can ask bishops for help, but few do.

Salt Lake City's "Welfare Square" includes a "Bishops Storehouse." It's like a grocery store, with shelves lined with everything from diapers to peanut butter. Most items bear the church's beehive logo, meaning that they were produced by church-owned enterprises.

The church owns farms, ranches and orchards, canneries, bakeries, milk plants, a soap factory and a flour mill.

"The bishop knows his congregation's needs and tailors what they receive based on that knowledge," said Kent Hinckley, director of Bishops Storehouse services. "There's an intimate relationship between the giver and the receiver."

The program's emphasis is squarely on work and responsibility. Recipients are expected to contribute to the system as they get help. Many of the volunteers working at the canneries and distribution centers are church welfare recipients who work to repay the charity.

"We try to help people gain self-reliance so they, in turn, can help someone else," Hinckley said. "We didn't want a dole system. That would be detrimental to the people who receive. It doesn't help them to improve themselves."

Other organizations do it differently.

Programs Serve All Backgrounds

Catholic Community Services, the nation's largest faith-based charity, "works hand in hand with the government every day," said Ron Pierre, director of Catholic Family Services of Utah.

Staffers come from all faiths, and the programs serve people of all backgrounds.

Catholic Services operations are determined by government contracts, Pierre said. The services must show results or the organization loses funding.

As for the president's proposal, the Catholic church is taking a wait-and-see attitude, hoping none of its current funding is in jeopardy.

"We are in constant need of funding, so we are driven by the need to go out and obtain funding just like any nonprofit," Pierre said.

Working with the government requires some flexibility, Pierre said. "The political situation does make a difference, and we have to adjust to that."

Mangum believes one of the reasons for the Mormon welfare program's success is the fact that Mormon charity is based wholly on religious beliefs--something he thinks might be lost if the government stepped in.

Mormons believe that they have an obligation to care for one another in both spiritual and material terms, he said. "People who have that kind of conviction can say, 'Go help them,' and it will happen. It works because it's motivated by that conviction."

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/17/local/me-11364

A REMOTE VILLAGE IN SIERRA LEONE GETS THE GIFT OF LIFE

In 2012 LDS Charities will help build wells and spring water systems for one million people on three continents.  Just $100 will bring clean water to 12 people for several years to come.  Please choose to give the gift of life to those in need.

http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/#.UBvRII6UcmQ

[Conan71]

I can fault them for being behind the anti-gay policies of the Boy Scouts, though. I can also fault them for spending millions of dollars on Prop 8. I cannot fault them for the good works they do, which I very much appreciate. It's the strings that bother me.

I wonder who in the McCain organization would have had access to the returns and hate Romney enough to try and tank his chances at this late stage. The convention hasn't been held yet, so it's conceivable that Romney could end up not actually being the nominee, but they'd have to put up someone with nearly universal name recognition. It seems a little weird. I haven't paid close attention to Reid over the years, but I don't remember him being an outright liar, so I find it hard to believe the allegation is just made up from whole cloth.

Perhaps wires got crossed and what really happened is that Romney paid zero income tax in 2008 and/or 2009. That wouldn't be too surprising given that most everyone of means had plenty of investment losses to offset any income during that period.

The tax returns disqualifying Romney is a fantasy started by no less than Rahm Emanuel.  They simply could not pick two RINO white men and hope that Republicans would be very energized to turn out, especially since Romney would have been an easy target due to Romneycare.  Too many distractions, too much track record and easy to attack as some out of touch millionaire (like the previous occupant of the WH).  They also gambled that a woman on the GOP ticket might balance the historical significance of a black man being a serious contender for president.  I suspect they believed Palin would attract more of the moderate and even Democrat female vote.  It's unfortunate they didn't give her an IQ test as part of the vetting process.

I really don't care if he turns over any more tax returns.  I can already tell you what is in them: he's gone to great lengths to save as much in taxes as legally possible under our tax code.  That's hardly illegal, and the tax code is not of his creation.  It's absolutely no different than what any other wealthy American does.  All that happens if he turns over 5, 12, or 40 years of tax returns is the next three months becomes a nit-pickfest of every charitable contribution, partnership, s-corp, and bank account.

The Obama camp needs that sort of distraction and obfuscation from the real issues, especially with unemployment on the rise again.  A whisper campaign that Romney is a felon is truly pathetic.  It's a shame Obama doesn't have a shining record to run on after 3.5 years.

I find it laughable when Reid claims that Romney wouldn't even qualify for a cabinet post.  Blatantly cheating on taxes didn't disqualify Timothy "Turbo Tax foobared Me" Geithner from becoming the head of the Treasury, now did it?

What's hilarious, is I pulled this link from the moronic Gibson piece.  I don't believe legally the McCain camp could release Romney's returns.

Former McCain adviser: Romney taxes complex but not 'disqualifying'
By Justin Sink    - 07/22/12 01:40 PM ET
   
A top campaign official who worked for Sen. John McCain's (R-Ariz.) 2008 presidential bid and helped select his running mate said Sunday that Mitt Romney's tax returns "do not look anything like the average American," but held nothing which prevented him from being on the ticket.

Steve Schmidt, McCain's former campaign strategist, who viewed Romney's tax returns when the presumptive nominee was being vetted for the vice presidential slot in the last cycle said Romney was an "extremely wealthy man."

He said Romney had turned over 23-years' worth of tax returns to the McCain campaign to vet that were extremely complex. But Schmidt also said there was nothing in the documents that would have precluded McCain from picking Romney.

"Mitt Romney went through this process and what I can tell you is that he's a person of decency with the highest ethical character and background," Schmidt said. "There was nothing that was disqualifying. That pick in 2008 was not about any deficiency with Mitt Romney. It was a political decision that we made in a very bad political circumstance."

McCain eventually selected then-Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate.

The Obama campaign has used Romney's willingness to turn over extended tax returns to McCain — but not the American public — to knock the presumptive Republican nominee as not transparent.

"He has only released one year, to the McCain campaign he released 23 years," said Chicago mayor and former Obama chief of staff Rahm Emanuel to ABC News last week. "And he's telling the people, 'I'm not going to give you what I gave John McCain's people in 2008.' And when he gave them 23 years, John McCain's campaign looked at it and went, 'Let's go with Sarah Palin.' So whatever's in there is far worse than just the first year."

But Romney has defended his decision to keep his tax records private, telling the National Review in an interview last week that he doesn't want to provide the Obama team more ammunition to launch political attacks.

"In the political environment that exists today, the opposition research of the Obama campaign is looking for anything they can use to distract from the failure of the president to reignite our economy," Romney said. "And I'm simply not enthusiastic about giving them hundreds or thousands of more pages to pick through, distort and lie about."

A majority of Americans, including 53 percent of independents, said in a USA Today poll released Thursday that Romney should release more of his returns.

At the same time, a plurality of voters — 47 percent — say tax returns are "largely irrelevant" when deciding who should be president. Conversely, 44 percent say it provides "legitimate information that helps voters make better decisions."
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/239367-mccain-adviser-romneys-tax-returns-do-not-look-anything-like-the-average-american

[Teatownclown]

I love it when you make the case for theocracy over democracy.

I also think it's hilarious to see you placing a church in a higher priority position than your own government.

CoCo loco, how is it an IRA amasses over $100,000,000? There's a limit of $6000/ year. Why?

You are going to find out that a big fraud is your candidate. You side with cheats?

What's that say? This http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/mitt-romney-ira-taxes-retirement.php?ref=fpblg is not Bill Maher!

[Conan71]

I love it when you make the case for theocracy over democracy.

I also think it's hilarious to see you placing a church in a higher priority position than your own government.

CoCo loco, how is it an IRA amasses over $100,000,000? There's a limit of $6000/ year. Why?

You are going to find out that a big fraud is your candidate. You side with cheats?

What's that say? This http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/mitt-romney-ira-taxes-retirement.php?ref=fpblg is not Bill Maher!

The government should not be running so many welfare programs.  Non-government based social and religious organizations have proven to manage these programs much closer and more efficiently to people who really need aid.

Theocracy?  Quit being a moron.  That's the same fear the uneducated on the right tried to lay off on Obama in '08.  LDS likes to keep a healthy distance from the government.

IRA over 100,000,000 has nothing to do with LSD...ooops, Freudian slip.

[RecycleMichael]

IRA over 100,000,000 has nothing to do with LSD...ooops, Freudian slip.

Don't be so acidic.

[Teatownclown]

The government should not be running so many welfare programs.  Non-government based social and religious organizations have proven to manage these programs much closer and more efficiently to people who really need aid.

Theocracy?  Quit being a moron.  That's the same fear the uneducated on the right tried to lay off on Obama in '08.  LDS likes to keep a healthy distance from the government.

IRA over 100,000,000 has nothing to do with LSD...ooops, Freudian slip.

More grunt....Where do you get off suggesting a Muslim American citizen get managed help from a church? I do think you are starting to see some of the irony we are trying to expose over Rev. Wright hatred....or was it just fear and racism?

I fear a cult in the oval office so that makes it equivocate.

[Gaspar]

Is it possible for the clown to participate in a thread without ridiculing other people on the basis of their religion?

Oh, wait, never mind!

[RecycleMichael]

Is it possible for the clown to participate in a thread without ridiculing other people on the basis of their religion?

Please don't give the intolerant clown any ammunition.

[Conan71]

More grunt....Where do you get off suggesting a Muslim American citizen get managed help from a church? I do think you are starting to see some of the irony we are trying to expose over Rev. Wright hatred....or was it just fear and racism?

I fear a cult in the oval office so that makes it equivocate.

Actually, Catholic Charities will provide aid, comfort, housing, and food to anyone of any religion or denomination, Bozo.  I suspect Muslim temples take steps to take care of their own as well.

You play loose & fast with the term "cult".  Is the Catlick Church a cult?  How is Islam any different than LDS?  Both have a human prophet they follow very closely.  Only in Islam you see far more extremism and Islamic-controlled governments.  Let's see, how many car bombings or plane hijackings have been justified by nut jobs under the influence of Mormon doctrine?

There is much debate on whether Joseph Smith—the man who founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often known as the Mormon Church—was truly a prophet called of God, but one of his prophecies has undoubtedly come to pass. According to Smith, an angel visited him in the autumn of 1823, telling him that his name "should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people."

As Mitt Romney has taken the national stage as the presumptive presidential nominee of the Republican Party this year, his Mormon faith has garnered unprecedented interest. The resulting discussion has borne out the truth of Moroni's prophesy, as genuine admiration and bitter criticism have been leveled not only at the prophet, but at the church he founded nearly 200 years ago. Animating this discussion is a basic question that often goes unstated: Are Mormons normal enough to belong in mainstream America? Normal enough that one of them could be trusted to be president?

One way of approaching this topic is to ask whether Mormonism is a legitimate religion, in the way Catholicism and Judaism are, or whether it is something altogether different and perhaps more sinister. Though Southern Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress was among the in this campaign to use the word, the term "cult" has now become a popular way of marginalizing Mormons. Bill Maher— who strongly doubts the existence of any omniscient being not named Bill Maher— branded Mormonism a cult via Twitter, and Andrew Sullivan recently argued that "the question of the cultish qualities of Mormonism [is] worth exploring."

Sullivan's argument is illustrative, as it follows the approach of so many others who have pushed the "cult" line of attack. These attacks inevitably abandon any definitional rigor and load the dice to reach the desired result. Thus, Sullivan adopts a handful of suspiciously on-the-nose criteria for cultishness— secret places sealed off from outsiders, pressure not to leave, and effective "enforcement" of tithing. In other words, Sullivan looked at some elements in the Mormon tradition that he finds unsettling, exaggerated them for effect, and decided that those are the characteristics of a cult. It's an easy game to play. Here is another reasonable-sounding list of cultish characteristics: belief in the infallibility of a supreme leader, a system prohibiting clergy from normal family life, and a network of the especially devout who vow to totally remove themselves from society. No one believes Sullivan's own Catholic Church—a global faith that has inspired some of the world's greatest art, thought, and philanthropy — is a cult. But using Sullivan's tactics, it isn't hard to cast it in a dark, suspicious light.

Deciding who is a cultist and who is a legitimate believer is more often a matter of politics than of theology or psychology. This is what the writer Thomas Wolfe meant in saying that "a cult is a religion with no political power." Witness the vehement denunciations of Mormonism during the 2008 election from the religious right, which all but disappeared during this cycle, when a Romney victory appeared much more likely. The fact that Jeffress ultimately endorsed Romney after labeling him a cultist perfectly illustrates the political nature of the slur, as does the sudden interest in the issue exhibited by Sullivan, who happens to be a staunch supporter of President Obama.

Ultimately, calling a religion a cult is a cowardly act, because the vagueness of the word provides plausible deniability to any who use it. While Sullivan or Jeffress may say they use the word in a specialized, limited sense, for the average person it evokes images of federal agents surrounding the Branch Davidians in Waco, not of a vibrant, growing religion some 14 million strong. If Sullivan does not intend to equate Mormons with brainwashed sycophants in a suicide pact, he should choose a less inflammatory word—one that actually means what he is trying to say.

While Joseph Smith still has his critics today, the teachings he left the LDS Church are fundamentally inconsistent with mind control or religious coercion. One of his more enduring revelations remains at the heart of LDS teaching on leading in the Church, warning that "[n]o power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned." There are easier ways to brainwash people than through long-suffering and meekness.

In late June, Mormons around the world commemorated the murder of their prophet 168 years ago, by a bloodthirsty mob infuriated by the life and teachings of this complex, thoughtful man. This week, they still contemplate whether the years since then have been sufficient to cure the American people of one of the last acceptable prejudices.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/mormonism-and-the-cult-of-name-calling/2012/07/11/gJQAxvZMdW_blog.html

[Teatownclown]

Please don't give the intolerant clown any ammunition.

I'm not intolerant of their philosophical beliefs. But I am intolerant of their scams, their attempts to convert non believers, and their efforts to make their morality mine.

[Teatownclown]

Actually, Catholic Charities will provide aid, comfort, housing, and food to anyone of any religion or denomination, Bozo.  I suspect Muslim temples take steps to take care of their own as well.

You play loose & fast with the term "cult".  Is the Catlick Church a cult?  How is Islam any different than LDS?  Both have a human prophet they follow very closely.  Only in Islam you see far more extremism and Islamic-controlled governments.  Let's see, how many car bombings or plane hijackings have been justified by nut jobs under the influence of Mormon doctrine?

How are the Hassids different than other Jews? Islam has different varieties of Muslim sects. LDS and Catholicism are different than all forms of  Christianity. Only a simpleton would equate terrorism with Muslims. Only a closed minded person would equate generosity and care to Mormonism and Catholicism. Those little abused children exposed the Catholics just like Joe Smith exposed the Mormons for making it up as they go along. If the Scientologists opened up and exposed their operations would you still consider them a cult?

[Conan71]

How are the Hassids different than other Jews? Islam has different varieties of Muslim sects. LDS and Catholicism are different than all forms of  Christianity. Only a simpleton would equate terrorism with Muslims. Only a closed minded person would equate generosity and care to Mormonism and Catholicism. Those little abused children exposed the Catholics just like Joe Smith exposed the Mormons for making it up as they go along. If the Scientologists opened up and exposed their operations would you still consider them a cult?

I don't consider Scientology a cult.  I'm not as judgmental as you.