Tax returns are a deal breaker

[Gaspar]

I'm surprised to see you speak about Romney like that. His negative campaign and sketchy history on economics . . .

Thanks!  I had to share that one with everyone in the office. 

[Townsend]

Why wasn't anyone upset that McCain only released two years in 2008?  By all accounts, he's a wealthy man with various business interests.

Maybe nobody had to bring it up once his VP was chosen.

[Townsend]

Thanks!  I had to share that one with everyone in the office.

?

[AquaMan]

It's always an option.  Maybe not a winning option, but an option never the less.

Why wasn't anyone upset that McCain only released two years in 2008?  By all accounts, he's a wealthy man with various business interests.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/pictures-video/how-many-years-of-tax-returns-have-presidential-candidates-released-in-the-past-pictures-20120719

Because McCain did not run primarily on his record as a job creator, a financial wizard and the architect of health care. His issues were competence, wisdom/experience, foreign affairs and defense. He knew he had the S&L debacle in his background and was smart enough to change the direction of his campaign.

This guy made his issue and he now must live with it. His returns are evidence of his business acumen and could be used to bolster that image. Its more a deficit to allow the conspiracies to continue to circle him.

[AquaMan]

Thanks!  I had to share that one with everyone in the office. 

Glad to add a little humor to your office. I'm sure your co-workers, office slaves, sycophants and fellow economists needed the lift.

[Teatownclown]

http://www.dscc.org/act4sr?action_KEY=575&track=SEM_GC_TaxReturns-C_MR-Returns_www.nationalmemo.com_27408104732

http://www.nationalmemo.com/the-missing-evidence-in-romneys-tax-records/

Harry Reid has provoked outrage among liberals as well as conservatives, who seem to believe he has violated propriety by repeating gossip about Mitt Romney's taxes. The Senate leader says someone connected with Romney told him that the Republican candidate paid no income taxes for a period of ten years. Offended by Reid's audacity, commentators on the right have indicted him for  "McCarthyism" while others on the left have accused him of inventing the whole story.

Evidently the chief complaint against Reid — aside from aggressiveness unbecoming a Democrat — is that he cited "an extremely credible source" who he has so far declined to name.  Some journalists have gone so far as to suggest that Reid must be lying because he won't identify the source.

Despite all this righteous tut-tutting among the great and the good, in newspapers and magazines as well as on television, Reid's critics simply have no way of knowing whether he is telling the truth or not. From the beginning, Reid himself admitted forthrightly that he has no way of being absolutely certain whether what he was told is factual or not, although he believes the person who said it was being truthful.

Many of Reid's critics work for news outlets that rely on unnamed sources every day, of course, publishing assertions that range from the mundane to the outlandish. It is hard to see why an unnamed source quoted by a daily newspaper or a monthly magazine – or hidden behind a screen in a TV studio – is more credible than a person whispering in the ear of a United States Senator.

Indeed, several of the news outlets now barking at Reid have suffered their own episodes of scandalous embarrassment due to the exposure of invented sources and quotes (see Jayson Blair, Stephen Glass, etc. etc. etc.) . Yet they nevertheless continue to publish quotes from such unnamed individuals. After all, where else would Reid have learned that this is acceptable conduct?

Meanwhile Romney's response is to demand that Reid "put up or shut up" – that is, reveal the name of his source. But that would prove nothing. As Reid has pointed out, only the former Bain executive can demonstrate conclusively that suspicions about his tax history  are unfounded.  Although the irritated Romney retorts that he has "paid a lot of taxes," his denial won't suffice as proof either. He could have paid hefty real estate taxes on his various homes and sales taxes on his purchases of cars, car elevators, powerboats, and other luxury goods, among other levies, while paying little or no federal income tax.

Obviously it would be simple for Romney to disprove Reid's statement, which is unlike McCarthyite accusations that involve someone's personal associations or state of mind. The necessary evidence is not only within Romney's possession, but is material that candidates in his position normally release to the public and that the public expects to see. It is material that he previously surrendered to Senator John McCain's campaign staff in 2008, when they were vetting him for a possible vice presidential nomination. (For now, they are conspicuously silent on the Reid controversy.)

There is a legal doctrine that applies to Romney's current behavior, as Indiana attorney John Sullivan points out – and it doesn't place the burden of proof on Reid:

At law, if a person in control of evidence refuses to produce the evidence, then the jury is instructed that there is a presumption that the evidence would be against the party failing to produce. It is called the "Missing Evidence" instruction.

The missing evidence is in Romney's grasp, yet he insists that he will never produce it. Does anyone need instruction from a judge to make the correct inference?

[Conan71]

Because McCain did not run primarily on his record as a job creator, a financial wizard and the architect of health care. His issues were competence, wisdom/experience, foreign affairs and defense. He knew he had the S&L debacle in his background and was smart enough to change the direction of his campaign.

This guy made his issue and he now must live with it. His returns are evidence of his business acumen and could be used to bolster that image. Its more a deficit to allow the conspiracies to continue to circle him.

I'm not following.  What would be revealed in a personal income tax form which would indicate he's a job creator?  Everyone wants ten more years of returns, because George Romney supplied 12 years?  Please.  That still would reveal nothing about his days at Bain, assuming 1999 was when his active participation there was over.

You won't find anything in tax returns which relate to business acumen, unless you equate high income to revealing that success via his investments over the last 10 years.  You can simply look at companies he personally fostered in his years at Bain, and programs he promoted as governor of Massachusetts which helped job growth.

[AquaMan]

Let me simplify this. Romney: business candidate, will turn economy around because of business experience in making fortune from amassing capital and buying, operating, raiding and shutting down other companies, has tremendous financial abilities that are reflected in his ability to "save" the Olympics, amass a fortune without government help, yes...creates jobs. THAT is what this guy is running on besides promising to destroy whatever Obama has done the last three years. If he is not the "business" candidate, then what is he?

That makes his tax returns germane to any discussion of What Kind of Businessman he is. Is he the kind of businessman who shifts wealth around to other countries so as to avoid taxes? Does he use shell corporations, exploit arcane tax regulations and prefer to fight the IRS over them? Does he fudge dates and ignore reality as he does with Bain? Is he the kind of guy who prides himself on not paying taxes? Is he the kind of guy who donates to as many charities as he says he does?

[Gaspar]

Let me simplify this. Romney: business candidate, will turn economy around because of business experience in making fortune from amassing capital and buying, operating, raiding and shutting down other companies, has tremendous financial abilities that are reflected in his ability to "save" the Olympics, amass a fortune without government help, yes...creates jobs. THAT is what this guy is running on besides promising to destroy whatever Obama has done the last three years. If he is not the "business" candidate, then what is he?

That makes his tax returns germane to any discussion of What Kind of Businessman he is. Is he the kind of businessman who shifts wealth around to other countries so as to avoid taxes? Does he use shell corporations, exploit arcane tax regulations and prefer to fight the IRS over them? Does he fudge dates and ignore reality as he does with Bain? Is he the kind of guy who prides himself on not paying taxes? Is he the kind of guy who donates to as many charities as he says he does?

All of that would have been reported on his SF278 filed with the FEC as a part of his application to be a presidential candidate.  They seem to have approved him.

Romney: business candidate, will turn economy around because of business experience in making fortune from amassing capital and buying, operating, raiding and shutting down other companies, has tremendous financial abilities that are reflected in his ability to "save" the Olympics, amass a fortune without government help, yes...creates jobs. THAT is what this guy is running on besides promising to destroy whatever Obama has done the last three years. If he is not the "business" candidate, then what is he?

In contrast, President Obama: community activist candidate, will turn economy around because of his experience in making speeches, organizing petitions, golf, celebrity dinner parties, and killing terrorists, his pitiful financial abilities are reflected in his ability to generate uncertainty, amass a distrust throughout the private sector and, yes...limit the creation of jobs. THAT is what this guy is running on besides promising to continue what he has done over the last three years. If he is not the "failure" candidate, then what is he?

[AquaMan]

Dang. Another dead channel. Isn't anyone thinking around here? Is it all pre-formulated, pre-digested baby food?

Seriously, you think his tax returns are not germane to what he touts as his strengths? You think a guy who is running for city bus transportation director should not have to make his DMV records public? Or that they are not an issue? How far do we go with that?

Why would a candidate for Mayor need to provide proof of residence within the state or city they run in? After all its really not germane if they are conservative enough and can create economic stability.

You ever work for Penn State?

[Conan71]

Dang. Another dead channel. Isn't anyone thinking around here? Is it all pre-formulated, pre-digested baby food?

Seriously, you think his tax returns are not germane to what he touts as his strengths? You think a guy who is running for city bus transportation director should not have to make his DMV records public? Or that they are not an issue? How far do we go with that?

Why would a candidate for Mayor need to provide proof of residence within the state or city they run in? After all its really not germane if they are conservative enough and can create economic stability.

You ever work for Penn State?

Really, I'm quite surprised someone of your wit and intellect bought into the meme that his taxes will somehow reveal one thing about his leadership style.  I downloaded the SF-278 and there's probably far more you can glean there than from tax returns and it's pretty devoid of anything other than assets and cash in, cash out.  Secondly, he's largely been an investor the last 13 years as far as personal income goes.  The tax returns won't speak to his policies as the governor of Mass, nor his chairmanship of the SLC Olympic games.

What do you suppose the personal 1040 forms of Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Meg Whitman, or Warren Buffett reveal about their own leadership or job creation skills?  What does President Obama's 1040 reveal about his potential for success or failure if he gets a second term in office?

If anything, he's showing strong leadership tendencies by not responding to a pathetic whisper campaign that he didn't pay taxes for ten years.

[Gaspar]

Dang. Another dead channel. Isn't anyone thinking around here? Is it all pre-formulated, pre-digested baby food?

Seriously, you think his tax returns are not germane to what he touts as his strengths? You think a guy who is running for city bus transportation director should not have to make his DMV records public? Or that they are not an issue? How far do we go with that?

Why would a candidate for Mayor need to provide proof of residence within the state or city they run in? After all its really not germane if they are conservative enough and can create economic stability.

You ever work for Penn State?

If you really believe that public review of tax forms should be a condition of candidacy, you should work to change the constitution.  Perhaps you should lobby for the bill making it a law?  

It would certainly limit the playing field and change the debate.

[RecycleMichael]

In normal times, the public would not demand to see a candidate's tax returns. This ain't normal times and Mitt ain't your normal candidate. His whole campaign is about money and how successful a businessman he has become. That is why people want to see what kind of businessman he was.

The Bush v Kerry campaign of eight years ago was different. War was a big topic and people talked about what kind of military service that Kerry had. He was running as a decorated veteran. His wife was filthy rich, but no one cared about his wealth because it wasn't a central part of his campaign. It is with Mitt.

Personal taxes shouldn't be an issue in this campaign, but they are. Romney has to deal with it and so far, he looks like his refusal is happening because he is hiding something. 

[erfalf]

I think I have it now. Mitt MUST release more tax returns so that we can properly vet him because his knowledge (or his accountant's knowledge) of how to pay as little taxes as possible is important when it comes to running the country.

HOWEVER, asking for college transcripts, that are also not required to run for public office, is totally out of bounds and something only the lunatic fringe of the republican party would ask for.

Got it.

[Townsend]

I think I have it now. Mitt MUST release more tax returns so that we can properly vet him because his knowledge (or his accountant's knowledge) of how to pay as little taxes as possible is important when it comes to running the country.

HOWEVER, asking for college transcripts, that are also not required to run for public office, is totally out of bounds and something only the lunatic fringe of the republican party would ask for.

Got it.

Great for you.