Hobby Lobby or How I Chose God Over Country

[DolfanBob]

How many US citizens can name a Supreme Court justice?

Is that necessary since none of my Court cases have been Supreme? 

[Conan71]

It works out for them.

Instead of Hobby Lobby covering whatever they choose not to cover, it'll be provided by the federal government.

Get excited.

Not according to one of my shrill liberal friends in New Jersey.  Wemmen will now all have to pay $1000 for IUD's!!

[Townsend]

Not according to one of my shrill liberal friends in New Jersey.  Wemmen will now all have to pay $1000 for IUD's!!

Every side has its over-reactors

[Gaspar]

I suspect there are just as many misinformed on the pro- Hob Lob side.

It's unfortunate when we bestow scholarly status on journalists and media pundits to tell us the news as they see fit.

I find this whole thing entertaining as hell!  A long time ago we delivered the healthcare decisions that used to be our own free choice to our employers to manage.

Then we decided that healthcare was a basic human right, instead of a choice.  So we gave it to the government to regulate and ultimately mandate. Now everyone is upset because corporations and government are making choices for us, and laws designed to protect our freedoms govern some of those choices.  Any mention of personal responsibility, or free-choice is now considered a 'restriction of access.'

This train is already on the tracks and it can't turn around.  Don't know where it's going but I can guarantee, it's going to be expensive and entertaining. The level of language and lack of understanding on both sides is marvelous.  The politicians must be near orgasum from the music of the masses as they continue to protest against their own freedoms.

Soon we will demand that healthcare be turned into a well oiled machine like all other government institutions.

Government control gives rise to fraud, suppression of Truth, intensification of the black market and artificial scarcity. Above all, it unmans the people and deprives them of initiative, it undoes the teaching of self-help... – Gandhi

It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights – the "right" to education, the "right" to health care, the "right" to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery – hay and a barn for human cattle. – Alexis De Tocquiville

[Townsend]

It's politics.  It was a wedge issue used to get the GOP some extra followers.

Republicans used to support birth control access.

[guido911]

I've read a few FB posts where people I know posted "Hobby Lobby won!"

I wondered if they knew what it was that Hobby Lobby won.  Did those posters know why they were excited?

Exactly. Sad ain't it.

[Conan71]

I find this whole thing entertaining as hell!  A long time ago we delivered the healthcare decisions that used to be our own free choice to our employers to manage.

Then we decided that healthcare was a basic human right, instead of a choice.  So we gave it to the government to regulate and ultimately mandate. Now everyone is upset because corporations and government are making choices for us, and laws designed to protect our freedoms govern some of those choices.  Any mention of personal responsibility, or free-choice is now considered a 'restriction of access.'

This train is already on the tracks and it can't turn around.  Don't know where it's going but I can guarantee, it's going to be expensive and entertaining. The level of language and lack of understanding on both sides is marvelous.  The politicians must be near orgasum from the music of the masses as they continue to protest against their own freedoms.

Soon we will demand that healthcare be turned into a well oiled machine like all other government institutions.

Government control gives rise to fraud, suppression of Truth, intensification of the black market and artificial scarcity. Above all, it unmans the people and deprives them of initiative, it undoes the teaching of self-help... – Gandhi

It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights – the "right" to education, the "right" to health care, the "right" to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery – hay and a barn for human cattle. – Alexis De Tocquiville

Perhaps people are starting to realize that dependence comes at the price of lost liberty.  You can't have it both ways.

"I want my boss to pay for my birth control, but I want my boss to stay out of my bedroom!"  

MC is personally insulted that it's being portrayed as if sex is the most important issue facing women these days.

[guido911]

Perhaps people are starting to realize that dependence comes at the price of lost liberty.  You can't have it both ways.

"I want my boss to pay for my birth control, but I want my boss to stay out of my bedroom!"  

MC is personally insulted that it's being portrayed as if sex is the most important issue facing women these days.

It's the consequence of sex which is the most important issue facing women apparently.

[Conan71]

It's the consequence of sex which is the most important issue facing those pandering to liberal women apparently.

FIFY

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ostensibly, they did not become aware that the formulary they were paying for prior to 2012 had Plan B and Ella in it.  When they learned the mandate would require them to cover copper IUD's, IUD's with progesterone, Plan B and Ella that's when they became concerned.  That's really not a far-fetched notion that they had not paid that close of attention to contraceptive coverage until the media got ahold of it in the run up to ACA implementation.  I think a lot of employers are largely ignorant of what all is covered in their employer plans.

Hob Lob still offers 16 kinds of contraception including progesterone implants as well as sterilization which makes them look quite liberal compared to the Catholic Church's stance on contraception.  That's where the misinformation train has gone off the rails here.  People are screaming women have no choice now after this ruling.

As activist as HL has been, I suspect they knew exactly what was in their previous plans.  I have been involved in choosing/evaluating insurance program at a small company in town that I worked for and there was in depth, detailed discussion by both sides.  The insurance company covered EVERY single feature, and we paid attention.  It got boring and tedious, but at least BCBS made sure we knew every detail....could have been the reps we talked to, but I definitely got the impression that this was standard procedure with them.


Bottom line, there is always a choice....at the very least, none of those 16,000 who work there are required to stay.  They can find a job somewhere that has the plan they want.  And I suspect that if a significant number of their better people left, these people might decide it is costing them too much to try to intrude in their employees lives.   Might take a while, considering the apparent reactionary, heavily political, expedient, rather than religious nature of their beliefs.

And the indignant people out there who don't work for them - well, don't buy at their store.  Michael's has stores around in many of the same towns as HL.  And no reason some indignant person or group can't put together some venture money and start an arts/crafts store.


I don't really care about HL - to me this is more about the whole notion that an artificial construct, created by the state, can be defined as people.  That should just scare your livers pink!!

[Gaspar]

I really love the use of the terminology "blocking access."

My boss does not pay for my meals, therefore he is blocking access to food! 

This is getting so awesome.  It's shesing a spotlight on the true liberal groupthink.

[Townsend]

This is getting so awesome.  It's shesing a spotlight on the true liberal groupthink.

Good for you.  What has it shesed?

[Conan71]

As activist as HL has been, I suspect they knew exactly what was in their previous plans.  I have been involved in choosing/evaluating insurance program at a small company in town that I worked for and there was in depth, detailed discussion by both sides.  The insurance company covered EVERY single feature, and we paid attention.  It got boring and tedious, but at least BCBS made sure we knew every detail....could have been the reps we talked to, but I definitely got the impression that this was standard procedure with them.


Bottom line, there is always a choice....at the very least, none of those 16,000 who work there are required to stay.  They can find a job somewhere that has the plan they want.  And I suspect that if a significant number of their better people left, these people might decide it is costing them too much to try to intrude in their employees lives.   Might take a while, considering the apparent reactionary, heavily political, expedient, rather than religious nature of their beliefs.

And the indignant people out there who don't work for them - well, don't buy at their store.  Michael's has stores around in many of the same towns as HL.  And no reason some indignant person or group can't put together some venture money and start an arts/crafts store.


I don't really care about HL - to me this is more about the whole notion that an artificial construct, created by the state, can be defined as people.  That should just scare your livers pink!!

And as I've illustrated in the math, there's an incredibly small percentage of HL's workforce who would not be able to get an employer paid-for IUD considering 8.5% of women in the U.S. rely on an IUD as their primary form of contraception.

Well, we crossed the bridge on corporate personhood a few years back.  Now we've determined corporations have religious rights.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I really love the use of the terminology "blocking access."

My boss does not pay for my meals, therefore he is blocking access to food! 

This is getting so awesome.  It's shesing a spotlight on the true liberal groupthink.

Actually, it's called law of supply and demand... the total compensation system that has evolved over decades that benefits both employer and employee.  Employee's get the benefit of group purchases of things like insurance - including but not limited to health, life, disability, etc.  Vacations, and any and all other various items that may form part of a compensation package.  Employer's get a more stable workforce where what might be day to day concerns of dealing with these items on an individual basis are eliminated.  It is a very comprehensive win/win for both side.  

How can you not get that if you are as involved in 'business' as you would seem to be?

And ALL of it - thanks to unions!  If you want to see an example of reality BEFORE this modern era, well, I bet you see it almost every year.  Charles Dickens wrote about a guy named Bob Cratchit.  That IS the pre-union reality both here and in England as well as the entire industrialized world.  And we get glimpses of today's reality in China and India from time to time.  They are living that dream right now.  Up to and including child labor.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And as I've illustrated in the math, there's an incredibly small percentage of HL's workforce who would not be able to get an employer paid-for IUD considering 8.5% of women in the U.S. rely on an IUD as their primary form of contraception.

Well, we crossed the bridge on corporate personhood a few years back.  Now we've determined corporations have religious rights.

Very small group - and all of those could go to Planned Parenthood for a sliding scale cost for that or other type contraception prevention.  The cost isn't the issue at all - other means are available.  The two issues are the HL change of policy when they saw an opportunity to try to "tweak" this administration - the hypocrisy of their management.


And the personhood issues from an activist, reactionary, SCOTUS.      Is there an agreement point between us here on what the court has done??  Pretty amazing - common ground!  (I won't even go into whether we agree on if it is a good thing or bad thing - just a meeting in the middle is pretty good!)