How Did TNF Members Vote On Bridenstine Vs. Olson

[heironymouspasparagus]

Any idea how much more revenue would be generated with 23 million unemployed and underemployed getting real employment?

Yeah, but that would mean reversing decades of job export exercises, wouldn't it?  That is very high on my list of favorite events to happen.  And that would also be in conjunction with more revenue.  We were on a path, when Bush was elected - granted it probably would not have continued at that rate - where our national debt would have been eliminated in about 12 to 15 years.  That's today. 

So, yeah, it is absolutely valid - in fact mandatory - to look at and continuously evaluate the past and its effects on today.  Examples; Bush was very bad.  Roosevelt very good - literally gave us the means and tools for our economy to become what it became - those tools literally allowing the development of something that had never existed before - a massive middle class.  No other country had ever achieved that before.

Even the most myopic of "tax cuts are all it takes" fools can see that it has been changed over the last decades.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Do you really think that merely eliminating the Bush tax cuts on only the 1%ers will be "enough"? 

I don't.

Red, you are still falling into the same old tired pattern of jumping to the most extreme, exclusive condition and lamenting it's failure.  Nobody - except for the Murdochianz - has EVER said or implied or advanced the idea that lapsing the Bush tax cuts will be 'enough'.  It must be done in conjunction with other actions that have already been started.  Now it is time to start that one.


As with the topic of energy - no one ever advances the idea that solar or wind will be the only tools used.  They MUST be some of the tools used.

[Hoss]

Red, you are still falling into the same old tired pattern of jumping to the most extreme, exclusive condition and lamenting it's failure.  Nobody - except for the Murdochianz - has EVER said or implied or advanced the idea that lapsing the Bush tax cuts will be 'enough'.  It must be done in conjunction with other actions that have already been started.  Now it is time to start that one.


As with the topic of energy - no one ever advances the idea that solar or wind will be the only tools used.  They MUST be some of the tools used.

For me, it seems that many on the right use a 'black or white' mentality with no grey in between.

[Conan71]

I'm guessing not.  But what is the harm in letting them expire?  They'd just go back to the effective tax rate they had during the Clinton years.  We all know how financially dire THOSE years were.

As long as the middle class rates aren't allowed to go back up with the upper brackets.  Spending power of the middle class is already taking a beating with high fuel prices.

[nathanm]

As long as the middle class rates aren't allowed to go back up with the upper brackets.  Spending power of the middle class is already taking a beating with high fuel prices.

Historically, housing has led recoveries. Now that housing has finally turned the corner in the vast majority of markets we should be good as long as we don't actively love it up.

[heironymouspasparagus]

As long as the middle class rates aren't allowed to go back up with the upper brackets.  Spending power of the middle class is already taking a beating with high fuel prices.

You mean those high fuel prices that are about 60 cents less than this time in 2008??

[Conan71]

You mean those high fuel prices that are about 60 cents less than this time in 2008??

Buck higher, at least in Tulsa.  Gas prices peaked in July/Aug of '08.  If the average family burns 20 gal of gas per week, that's $80 less per month they can spend at the grocery store or Wal-Martz.

By August, the cost fell to $3.74 and continued to fall until the price averaged $2.07 just after Election Day in November, when Mr. Obama was elected president.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57401650/face-the-facts-a-fact-check-on-gas-prices/

[nathanm]

High gas prices suck. Unfortunately, there are only two ways of bringing them down significantly. First, foment another financial crash. Second, curbs on speculation that would be decried by half the country as teh soshulizum.

[Conan71]

High gas prices suck. Unfortunately, there are only two ways of bringing them down significantly. First, foment another financial crash. Second, curbs on speculation that would be decried by half the country as teh soshulizum.

Three ways, actually.  Third is out-strip demand with supply but that's never going to happen again at least not the official account anyhow.

Demand isn't out-stripping supply, that's what big oil wants you to believe and it's the crap they keep shoveling to the government.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Three ways, actually.  Third is out-strip demand with supply but that's never going to happen again at least not the official account anyhow.

Demand isn't out-stripping supply, that's what big oil wants you to believe and it's the crap they keep shoveling to the government.

Supply greater than demand is the reason we have the fluctuations we do have.  They work VERY hard to keep that from happening.  And if/when it does, they use all the storage capacity available to hold supply back from the market until the last moment possible - just as gas is starting to bubble over the top of the tank...

[nathanm]

Demand isn't out-stripping supply, that's what big oil wants you to believe and it's the crap they keep shoveling to the government.

With regard to gasoline, it's not, supply can exceed demand if refiners would like it to do so. With regard to oil, however, significant overall production increases are harder to come by. The continued economic turmoil in Europe and elsewhere is easing pressure on oil supplies for the moment, but the moment they pull their heads out of their asses that situation will become difficult again.

Obviously, any individual country's production may or may not follow the global trend, but in aggregate there's not much more (in the sense of increasing the rate of production) to be had in the next few years.

[heironymouspasparagus]

With regard to gasoline, it's not, supply can exceed demand if refiners would like it to do so. With regard to oil, however, significant overall production increases are harder to come by. The continued economic turmoil in Europe and elsewhere is easing pressure on oil supplies for the moment, but the moment they pull their heads out of their asses that situation will become difficult again.

Obviously, any individual country's production may or may not follow the global trend, but in aggregate there's not much more (in the sense of increasing the rate of production) to be had in the next few years.

Not sure how it is today - have been out of touch for a couple years - but back just a little while, Saudi could turn up the volume to the tune of 50% to 100% or so in essentially real time.  Later today?  Or in a few days...or few weeks. 

[Conan71]

- have been out of touch for a couple years -

Just a couple?

[nathanm]

Not sure how it is today - have been out of touch for a couple years - but back just a little while, Saudi could turn up the volume to the tune of 50% to 100% or so in essentially real time.  Later today?  Or in a few days...or few weeks.  

They can pump more, but not more light sweet. The last few times they've said they'd increase production, they haven't really. (that's what they say on the oil drum, anyway, with charts to prove it. )Iraq, on the other hand, very much could increase output of the good stuff if people would stop blowing up the infrastructure. Not that they have any reason to do so. They obviously enjoy the high prices.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Just a couple?

Out of the oil industry.  Been thinking about going back!  Does that scare you enough??