Vision 2 returns from the dead

[Teatownclown]

I would expect so.  His entourage has been in town for a few days.  They've been spotted shopping and drinking at various places downtown.

Where there's smoke there's....burning.

Oh my gawd, the children!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yeah, OKC sucks, blah, blah, blah. This DTnr guy makes a lot of sense to me. When I see tour buses arriving from OKC and the rest of rural Oklahoma to visit our new downtown areas I'll be more persuaded that we have at least parity with the attractions of "the city" which include the seat of government, Murrah and longer history. When we jump ahead and put in rail trolley type systems, then yes, we have arrived.

But if we don't, that's okay. We are moving at our own pace, in our own direction and for different reasons. The real mistake is in believing we're somewhere or someone we aren't.

I didn't say they suck.  There is some very cool stuff there.  Basketball is no biggie to me, but I go to baseball games regularly when I am in town, and have been doing museum circuit - from Norman on north.  What I am saying is that they don't an overall "better" lifestyle than Tulsa - and I don't think it is as good.  Tulsa just "feels" better.  

Mrs. C...??  How you liking Tulsa?  How does it "feel" compared to Midwest City/OKC??

I have two friends who have moved here in the last 3 years who are lifelong OKCer's.  They were born and raised, educated (OU) in central OK.  They now live and work in Tulsa.  One has a brother who I work with (in OKC area) and he is trying to get brother to move up here to work/live.  It is that much more "comfortable" to him and the other one.  Brother is liking it too, when he visits.  To the point where he is casually looking for work.  They would be good additions to the city.

Bricktown is ok... it's not bad, it's just not any better than what we have.  Still a lot of empty buildings there, too, where shops/stores opened, closed, opened, closed, and now are vacant again.  We get that, too.  It's a cycle.

No restaurant in Bricktown is better than the best we have.  (Right Blake?)  As for tour buses...well what they have is a better propaganda effort, so maybe we need some help there.

[AquaMan]

Inevitably these conversations devolve into "OKC sucks, Tulsa is sophisticated" on this end of the turnpike and "OKC rocks", "Tulsa is a whiny brat" from the other end of the pike. Just making note.

I think OKC is designed for suburban commuter lifestyles. The stretch between Norman and Edmond reinforces that. Moore is one big shopping center area surrounded by farm pasture converted to walled off developments. Midwest City, Del City too. Boring, but effective in solving basics (lower real estate costs than the city and nearby franchise shopping). On either end of the stretch lie comfortable, urban, walkable communities. In the middle is OKC with job opportunities, government, entertainment and public facilities. I-35 makes it easy for interaction among the suburbs and the city. You can get anything you want or need on this stretch and live the urban life or suburban life quite easily. When someone says something about OKC they seem to think mostly of the boring, ugly burbs rather than the urban parts.

Tulsa is way different.

[DTowner]

I didn't say they suck.  There is some very cool stuff there.  Basketball is no biggie to me, but I go to baseball games regularly when I am in town, and have been doing museum circuit - from Norman on north.  What I am saying is that they don't an overall "better" lifestyle than Tulsa - and I don't think it is as good.  Tulsa just "feels" better.  

Mrs. C...??  How you liking Tulsa?  How does it "feel" compared to Midwest City/OKC??

I have two friends who have moved here in the last 3 years who are lifelong OKCer's.  They were born and raised, educated (OU) in central OK.  They now live and work in Tulsa.  One has a brother who I work with (in OKC area) and he is trying to get brother to move up here to work/live.  It is that much more "comfortable" to him and the other one.  Brother is liking it too, when he visits.  To the point where he is casually looking for work.  They would be good additions to the city.

Bricktown is ok... it's not bad, it's just not any better than what we have.  Still a lot of empty buildings there, too, where shops/stores opened, closed, opened, closed, and now are vacant again.  We get that, too.  It's a cycle.

No restaurant in Bricktown is better than the best we have.  (Right Blake?)  As for tour buses...well what they have is a better propaganda effort, so maybe we need some help there.

If you limit the comparison to just Bricktown versus The Brady/Blue Dome, I agree with you that we are doing better than OKC.  The problem is that is not a very well known fact even in Tulsa, much less OKC or elsewhere.  The perception within the state and even nationally is that OKC is a city on the rise with a lot of vitality and energy – an image that gets reinforced through a youthful Thunder team that continues to exceed expectations.  Tulsa isn't on anyone's radar nationally and, to the extent it is thought about, it often isn't thought of particularly well. 

However, my point that we are behind OKC goes well beyond Bricktown or even downtown development strictly interpreted.  OKC is adding jobs and population at a faster rate than Tulsa.  When it comes to attracting new businesses, size matters and we are falling further and further behind OKC in that regard.  OKC's leaders are also continuing to push the MAPS program in a way that makes sense.  OKC is reaping the benefits of decisions and investments it made 15+ years ago, but it isn't resting on those successes.  To some extent, Tulsa is simply behind the curve because we got a later start.  My concern, however, as born out by the dreadful V2 proposal, is that Tulsa still lacks leaders that "get it" – leaders that fully understand why we've had the success we've had, how to capitalize on it and how to propel that momentum forward to create a unique and vibrant Tulsa.  Our private sector isn't much better.  Rather than seeking out ways to grow their business and invest in Tulsa with pride (like Devon and others have in OKC), too many of our business leaders spend their time shopping their companies to out-of-state bidders in order to cash out.  Tulsa's unemployment numbers may be ok, but our business and income base is seriously eroded from what it was just 10 years ago with fewer companies headquartered here.

Your friends' experiences upon moving here are encouraging and not surprising, but sadly one that is not occurring enough.  As the capitol and intersection of 3 major interstates highways, OKC has some advantages with which Tulsa cannot compete.  To a large extent, Tulsa will always play second fiddle to OKC in Oklahoma.  Nonetheless, Tulsa has some advantages over OKC that we have failed to appreciate and take advantage of over the past several decades.  Perhaps we are reawaking to our potential.  I hope so.  But for now we would do well to keep a clear headed eye on OKC for ideas and inspiration, as well as proof of what can be accomplished.

[Teatownclown]

Unfortunately, we will always be grouped into the appearance of the new wild west because of politics. The rest the nation perceives us as behind the times. Only progressive leaders can change that. Most decisions on the government level are reactive rather than pro active. OKC has a different set of demographics to borrow from while Tulsa really is better suited towards lower growth and a higher quality of living.

There's always the possibility we get so antiquated that the rest the world sees us as a novelty.

[sauerkraut]

Roof height of BOK Tower= 667'    Roof height of  Devon Tower = 850'    So it's about 180' taller.    

Yep, that's pretty darn tall. The tallest building in Dallas, Texas is 921' feet tall, I forgot it's name but it's the skyscraper with the green lights around it, so the new OKC tower if it was in Dallas, Texas would be 2nd tallest building in Dallas.. The new OKC tower is now the tallest building in Oklahoma and puts Tulsa's BOK tower in the number 2 spot. That's a big step for OKC.... BTW OKC and Jacksonville, FL are the two largest cities in the USA land/area wise. Jacksonville FL is 874.3 square miles and OKC is 621.2 square miles. Not bad, pretty darn impressive.

[Townsend]

BTW OKC and Jacksonville, FL are the two largest cities in the USA land/area wise. Jacksonville FL is 874.3 square miles and OKC is 621.2 square miles. Not bad, pretty darn impressive.

So you think that's a good thing?  Why?

[Teatownclown]

Yep, that's pretty darn tall. The tallest building in Dallas, Texas is 921' feet tall, I forgot it's name but it's the skyscraper with the green lights around it, so the new OKC tower if it was in Dallas, Texas would be 2nd tallest building in Dallas.. The new OKC tower is now the tallest building in Oklahoma and puts Tulsa's BOK tower in the number 2 spot. That's a big step for OKC.... BTW OKC and Jacksonville, FL are the two largest cities in the USA land/area wise. Jacksonville FL is 874.3 square miles and OKC is 621.2 square miles. Not bad, pretty darn impressive.

wider and longer...good for OKshitty

[sauerkraut]

You'd have to live here in order to get out and see other things in Tulsa.  I'm still not convinced he lives here.  In the two years he's claimed that he has, not one shred of evidence that can't be found on public websites.  Not one photo..nothing.

Just sayin'

I have nothing to prove, but I did take part in Tulsa's Polar Bear Plunge New Years Day! I don't care if someone believes me or not.

[Townsend]

I have nothing to prove, but I did take part in Tulsa's Polar Bear Plunge New Years Day! I don't care if someone believes me or not.

OK, who's got a view of the library?  Look at the front door.

Now, Sauer, when we've got someone positioned to see the front door of the library, step out and wave.

[sauerkraut]

So you think that's a good thing?  Why?

It makes the record books. Bigger is better. Anyhow that's pretty impressive for a city to be 621 square miles- that's alot of elbow room. Here's some compairsons: Indianapolis is 372 square miles, Tulsa is 186.8 square miles, Cin. Ohio is only 79.6 square miles, Omaha, Nebraska is 118.9 square miles, L.A. is 502 square miles, Columbus, Ohio is 212.6 square miles. In other words OKC more than twice as large as MOST other cities area wise in the USA.

[Townsend]

It makes the record books. Bigger is better. Anyhow that's pretty impressive for a city to be 621 square miles- that's alot of elbow room. Here's some compairsons: Indianapolis is 372 square miles, Tulsa is 186.8 square miles, Cin. Ohio is only 79.6 square miles, Omaha, Nebraska is 118.9 square miles, L.A. is 502 square miles, Columbus, Ohio is 212.6 square miles. In other words OKC more than twice as large as MOST other cities area wise in the USA.

This isn't worth the face-palm pics.

[sauerkraut]

This isn't worth the face-palm pics.

It might be worth a big thumbs up to OKC our sister city 100 miles away. Anyhow, City rivery always goes on- Dallas and Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth, every city working to out do it's neighbor city.

[Townsend]

You'd have to live here in order to get out and see other things in Tulsa.  I'm still not convinced he lives here.  In the two years he's claimed that he has, not one shred of evidence that can't be found on public websites.  Not one photo..nothing.

Just sayin'

BTW, he's using a Tulsa Public Library computer.  Unless he's more talented than I think, he's here.  He's just horribly misinformed or a good act.

[DTowner]

Unfortunately, we will always be grouped into the appearance of the new wild west because of politics. The rest the nation perceives us as behind the times. Only progressive leaders can change that. Most decisions on the government level are reactive rather than pro active. OKC has a different set of demographics to borrow from while Tulsa really is better suited towards lower growth and a higher quality of living.

There's always the possibility we get so antiquated that the rest the world sees us as a novelty.

From a national perspective on politics, we are lumped in with OKC, so I don't see how that explains much.  At heart, politics are not Tulsa's problem - quality of leadership from both sides of the political aisle are not what we need it to be.