Red States Cutting Taxes (Oklahoma Mentioned)

[guido911]

I like it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/13/us-usa-tax-states-idUSBRE90C08C20130113

[Teatownclown]

I like it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/13/us-usa-tax-states-idUSBRE90C08C20130113

Typical and expected. Shifting the tax burden over to the one's who can least afford it.

[guido911]

ATypical and UNexpected. Shifting the tax burden over to the one's who can least afford it.

fixed that for you.

[Gaspar]

It's hard to get passed, but elimination of income taxes makes a significant impact in growth and employment, and actually evens out the tax burdon by levying taxes on consumption instead of income, and makes taxation impossible for the wealthy nearly impossible avoid.

Sales tax based systems also change the nature of commerce in the state and force government to focus on increasing consumption, through tourism, population growth, innovation, and increased employment through small business growth, instead of simply focusing on attracting and keeping big companies.

[Teatownclown]

Get States off the Federal Dole
Why are U.S. taxpayers footing the bill for surveillance cameras in Alaska?

http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/12/get-states-off-the-federal-dole

For a model of how to reform federal grants, Cato's Edwards suggests looking to Canada. Our neighbors to the north cut their national debt as a share of GDP from 68 percent in the mid-1990s to just 34 percent today. One key part of that reform was cutting federal aid to provincial and local governments while consolidating the remaining aid into three large block grants.

Over all, just 38 percent of government spending in Canada is done at the national level, compared to 71 percent in the United States. Canada has no federal department of education, for example. Far from hurting children, Canada's localized approach to education has correlated with test scores that are typically higher than those of American kids. Some provinces have made great strides in school choice and other innovations.

This could happen in the United States too. The federal government should warn states that it is turning off the grant spigot and then do it. When bills come due for regular, predicable expenditures such as education, states and localities should figure out how to make ends meet. If states stop depending on the feds for bailouts and start saving for a rainy day, they will finally be ready for the next hurricane. 

States rights....

[Gaspar]

States rights....

I just Rokered myself.  I have absolutely no disagreement with what Teatown has posted.

As was intended by the founders of this country. . .  
We tried the centralized experiment, and as history continuously proves, centralized spending approaches always become unsustainable, and deliver lower quality products and services.

Clown, have you had a moment of clarity?

[guido911]

I just Rokered myself.  I have absolutely no disagreement with what Teatown has posted.

As was intended by the founders of this country.  We tried the centralized experiment, and as history continuously proves, centralized spending approaches always become unsustainable, and deliver lower quality products and services.

Clown, have you had a moment of clarity?

Hell no. He thought he was being clever and didn't realize he just F'd himself.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I just Rokered myself.  I have absolutely no disagreement with what Teatown has posted.

As was intended by the founders of this country. . .  
We tried the centralized experiment, and as history continuously proves, centralized spending approaches always become unsustainable, and deliver lower quality products and services.

Clown, have you had a moment of clarity?

You didn't live through the times in Tulsa when a guy named Commissioner Thomas was water commissioner.  He kept water rates so low, that by the late 1970's into the early 80's.  We reached the point where we were treating and pumping over 120 million gallons a day during summer, but actually BILLING for less than half that.  What that meant was there were leaks in the system to the tune of 60 + million gallons per day.  The Tulsa water department infrastructure had collapsed and was literally in crisis full time.

But we had cheap water rates!!  As well as water rationing time after time...  when was the last time we had rationing??  Did it happen this summer.

You can either pay the taxes and fees that it takes to perform certain operations or you don't.  Tulsa chose not to for a long time and paid an even bigger price in the long run trying to catch up.

And the whole idea of "getting rid of waste in government" so we need to cut this, that or the other first to force them to do it right - give it a rest... put on your grown up panties and gain some understanding of reality.  That's a lame, plaintive, BS bleat of children trying to act grown up.  It is the people who bleat the loudest who get their favorites elected - those elected who do this kind of stuff....

[Gaspar]

You didn't live through the times in Tulsa when a guy named Commissioner Thomas was water commissioner.  He kept water rates so low, that by the late 1970's into the early 80's.  We reached the point where we were treating and pumping over 120 million gallons a day during summer, but actually BILLING for less than half that.  What that meant was there were leaks in the system to the tune of 60 + million gallons per day.  The Tulsa water department infrastructure had collapsed and was literally in crisis full time.

But we had cheap water rates!!  As well as water rationing time after time...  when was the last time we had rationing??  Did it happen this summer.

You can either pay the taxes and fees that it takes to perform certain operations or you don't.  Tulsa chose not to for a long time and paid an even bigger price in the long run trying to catch up.

And the whole idea of "getting rid of waste in government" so we need to cut this, that or the other first to force them to do it right - give it a rest... put on your grown up panties and gain some understanding of reality.  That's a lame, plaintive, BS bleat of children trying to act grown up.  It is the people who bleat the loudest who get their favorites elected - those elected who do this kind of stuff....

Huh?  What does this have to do with de-centralizing (de-federalizing) government?  Actually what does this have to do with anything on this thread?  
Perhaps you are lost?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Huh?  What does this have to do with de-centralizing (de-federalizing) government?  Actually what does this have to do with anything on this thread?  
Perhaps you are lost?

Cutting taxes.  To the point that we have done before in this state AND locally where there was serious damage done to our infrastructure.

Like the roads in Oklahoma today.  Education in Oklahoma today - primary through secondary.  Water, as in drought - both at state and local level.  And yes, social infrastructure - like the way we ignore mental health issues in this state - the same as other states and Federal.

You really ought to get a broader view of reality if you didn't understand that connection - too much "cut the taxes" tunnel vision.

[Gaspar]

Cutting taxes.  To the point that we have done before in this state AND locally where there was serious damage done to our infrastructure.

Like the roads in Oklahoma today.  Education in Oklahoma today - primary through secondary.  Water, as in drought - both at state and local level.  And yes, social infrastructure - like the way we ignore mental health issues in this state - the same as other states and Federal.

You really ought to get a broader view of reality if you didn't understand that connection - too much "cut the taxes" tunnel vision.

And what does that have to do with water bills?
As for drought, that typically is a function of weather patterns, but I assume that wouldn't' stop a liberal from making the argument that higher taxes can prevent it.

We'll just chalk this up to smoking your lunch. 

I wish I understood the love of taxes, or the worship of government as provider and purveyor of all things great, but I don't.  Probably never will.

[nathanm]

And what does that have to do with water bills?
As for drought, that typically is a function of weather patterns, but I assume that wouldn't' stop a liberal from making the argument that higher taxes can prevent it.

We'll just chalk this up to smoking your lunch. 

I wish I understood the love of taxes, or the worship of government as provider and purveyor of all things great, but I don't.  Probably never will.

It's less fun when you play dumb like that. You know very well what he was saying, which is that if you don't pay for maintenance of infrastructure the deferred maintenance ends up costing us all a lot more in the long run. Doesn't matter whether it's a water system, roads, public buildings, or anything else.

And yes, sometimes government does things better than private business. Often it does not. That's why rational people examine each individual situation and decide on the basis of evidence whether the private markets are working or not (or whether a government program is working or not), rather than being a slave to ideology.

[Conan71]

It's less fun when you play dumb like that. You know very well what he was saying, which is that if you don't pay for maintenance of infrastructure the deferred maintenance ends up costing us all a lot more in the long run. Doesn't matter whether it's a water system, roads, public buildings, or anything else.

And yes, sometimes government does things better than private business. Often it does not. That's why rational people examine each individual situation and decide on the basis of evidence whether the private markets are working or not (or whether a government program is working or not), rather than being a slave to ideology.

Except that 1/2 of our daily water supply was NOT being lost to leaks.  Loss of that magnitude would result in horrendous flooding.  The issue was that we did not have a source and treatment network to handle larger demand.  We eventually did add that capacity which is why we've not had any talk of rationing for the last 30 years until this last summer.

[Gaspar]

It's less fun when you play dumb like that. You know very well what he was saying, which is that if you don't pay for maintenance of infrastructure the deferred maintenance ends up costing us all a lot more in the long run. Doesn't matter whether it's a water system, roads, public buildings, or anything else.

And yes, sometimes government does things better than private business. Often it does not. That's why rational people examine each individual situation and decide on the basis of evidence whether the private markets are working or not (or whether a government program is working or not), rather than being a slave to ideology.

But the original discussion was the shift from an income based tax system to a consumption based system.  Consumption based systems generate more revenue and less waste.  That's why states like Texas have such great roads, schools, and infrastructure.  Of course we need to pay for infrastructure, the debate was over how and who.

Heiron's wake and bake response was simply confusing and disconnected.

[Teatownclown]

Except that 1/2 of our daily water supply was NOT being lost to leaks.  Loss of that magnitude would result in horrendous flooding.  The issue was that we did not have a source and treatment network to handle larger demand.  We eventually did add that capacity which is why we've not had any talk of rationing for the last 30 years until this last summer.

I don't think the current water department has a clue. Public diswerks knows how to patch and repair breaks.

The one street that meets the test of time is 71st from Riverside to Garnet. How much Federal dollars went into that main street? I know Mike Buchert oversaw the entire project and based on the credible job should have been elevated to head of the department. This municipality could use some real talent and talk about a straight shooter. I don't believe anything anymore coming out of Citty Hall.

Anybody notice Jan Brewer got smart? She's not timid about taking Federal dollars.