Gun Control Bill Dies in the Senate

[Hoss]

I get where you are coming from, that sounds like a large number but as a percent 100K represents only .0005 percent of the estimated 200 million privately-owned firearms.  That's .00028 of the estimated 350 million total between LEO, armed forces, and other government entities.  Hell they are even stolen from cop's homes and cars.

People need to realize a night stand, freezer, silverware drawer or glove box or center console of a car is not a gun safe.  There again, no one seems to be able to delineate how many stolen firearms weren't already reported stolen by someone else prior to the latest theft.  In other words, how many of those stolen firearms were one criminal stealing from another when it was reported as stolen? 

Most gun owners I know are very anal about properly secured and anchored safes in their home and mini safes in their vehicle.

Speaking of safes, can you or any other gun owner here suggest a good cable anchor safe for my car?

[Gaspar]

Speaking of safes, can you or any other gun owner here suggest a good cable anchor safe for my car?

[nathanm]

I get where you are coming from, that sounds like a large number but as a percent 100K represents only .0005 percent of the estimated 200 million privately-owned firearms.  That's .00028 of the estimated 350 million total between LEO, armed forces, and other government entities.  Hell they are even stolen from cop's homes and cars.

Yes, it's a small percentage, but still a large number in absolute terms, and very likely under reported. As far as most gun owners you know being responsible, you apparently don't know many good 'ol boys.

Hell, one of my clients leaves a loaded shotgun in the corner of his office and has since I first started working for him 15 years ago. Perhaps the gun owning set here in Oklahoma is more likely to use a safe. I don't know enough gun owners here well enough to know what their security arrangements are.

[TulsaRufnex]

Bad night of PWI for Ruff, I guess.

Don't go off on partisan hackery when you cite uninformed biased bloggers for your sources.

As far as there being a higher chance of homicide in my home with a loaded weapon, that would be correct.  Once someone breaks in my door, there will be a homicide- justifiable homicide.  Neither my wife nor I have depressive issues, so the chances of suicide in my home is 0%, that is unless one of my cats or my Yorkie grows an opposable thumb and decides to end it all.  My wife prefers not to be a victim of rape or murder if she is home alone, I can respect that.  

Advocating responsible self-defense is hardly gun-nuttery.  

No.  Partisan hackery is YOUR job, not mine.

There is a better chance of your weapon being used to kill an unsuspecting foreign exchange student than an actual murderer.
Oh, wait... if a petty thief breaks into your house, they deserve to die, right?
Really nice christian attitude you have there.
Funny dat.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/26/us/verdict-in-death-of-student-reverberates-across-nation.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

"This was a terrible tragedy, but once you had testimony this kid had an object in his hand and he was dancing around, moving forward, you had an acquittal right there," said Don Kates, a civil liberties lawyer and criminologist in San Francisco.

One caller to a talk show on radio station WLS in Chicago said yesterday: "This is a racist thing. If the guy who they killed was white, the killer would have been convicted. This is Klan country. If the guy was a minority, there'd be a riot and a new trial."

"What's happening is that we've got a gun lobby that's basically saying that pretty much everyone in America should be armed to the teeth because crime is rampant, the law can't protect you, and you have to do it for yourself," said Susan Whitmore, director of communications for the gun control group, Handgun Control. "But what you find is that guns don't make us safer, they just escalate the violence."

"This seems like Wild West justice," said Dan Wideman, a 24-year-old writer in Chicago. "But it shouldn't surprise us because of the level of fear and paranoia in our country. The only thing shocking about it is that American society has degenerated to the point where we just take something like this for granted whereas it led the Japanese newscasts nightly.

[Hoss]

No.  Partisan hackery is YOUR job, not mine.

There is a better chance of your weapon being used to kill an unsuspecting foreign exchange student than an actual murderer.
Oh, wait... if a petty thief breaks into your house, they deserve to die, right?
Really nice christian attitude you have there.
Funny dat.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/26/us/verdict-in-death-of-student-reverberates-across-nation.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

That's Castle Doctrine.  If someone is stupid enough to break into MY house and not expect me feel threatened, let them try it.  If you're not in my house by invite, you better get out.

And I'm not what you would consider a 'gun nut'.  I own two semi-automatic handguns.  Trying to get a shotgun also.

[TulsaRufnex]

Wow!  What an imaginative name caller...  so clever of you.

I have more respect for "Brady bunchers" than I will ever have for the gunscum who insist their rights to buy a bright shiny new military-style phallus trump the rights of parents who want to enroll their kids in elementary schools that are free from armed guards and/or metal detectors.

I remember James Brady.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57562892/jim-bradys-wife-sarah-this-is-a-huge-moment-for-gun-control/

I remember Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Do YOU remember 42-year old deputy marshall William F. Dagan?  Me neither.  But I bet his family does.
If Mr. Weaver had done what any REAL AMERICAN CITIZEN does when arrested and understands he would have had his day in court, this would never have happened.
Do you remember that Randy Weaver was a racist white supremicist?  And yet he is martyred as some sort of saint because he refused to follow AMERICAN LAWS and appear in court...
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/26/us/fugitive-in-idaho-cabin-plays-role-of-folk-hero.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

In the five days since a deputy United States marshal, William F. Degan, and Mr. Weaver's 13-year-old son, Samuel, were killed in a shootout, crowds of people have been steadily harassing the officers who are trying to detain the fugitive. He has vowed to die, and to take his three daughters and his wife, Vicki, with him if necessary.

Mr. Weaver, who is wanted on a Federal gun charge, has holed up in his cabin since January 1991, when he failed to appear in court. The Federal authorities have kept the cabin under surveillance, hoping, they said, to arrest him without a confrontation.

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Federal agents said Samuel, who was armed, was killed Friday in the initial exchange of gunfire that led to the death of the 42-year-old deputy marshal, Mr. Degan.

Even beyond the continuing confrontation at the roadblock, there is evidence of considerable support in Idaho for Mr. Weaver and other fugitives who have taken on the Federal Government.  White supremacists, although disavowed by virtually every politician in the state, continue to flourish in Idaho; the headquarters of the Aryan Nations, a radical neo-Nazi group, has been based 60 miles south of here, at Hayden Lake, for more than a decade.

In recent years Claude Dallas, a man convicted of killing two game wardens, and Christopher Boyce, who sold American military secrets to the Soviet Union, found refuge in the sparsely populated woods of Idaho and had numerous supporters.

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Carolyn Trochmann, a friend of the Weavers who has been bringing the family food for the last year, was also at the barricade, along with several of her children.

When she last visited them, a month ago, all the Weaver children except the baby were armed, Mrs. Trochmann said, adding, "I'm proud of Randy, and I hope he doesn't surrender."

The Weavers' baby is 9 months old; the other girls are 12 and 16 years old.

Like other supporters of Mr. Weaver, Mrs. Trochmann expressed little sympathy for the deputy marshal who was killed. She said the agents "provoked" the killing by trespassing on Mr. Weaver's property, 20 acres of thick forest on a mountaintop just outside this hamlet of 130 people.

The cabin is in Boundary County, which has only a single black family among its 9,000 residents, according to the 1990 census.

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A human rights group, formed several years ago to counter racists, has been trying this week to defuse the image of Mr. Weaver as a folk hero. "This is not a case of civil rights or harassment," the group, the Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations, said in a statement. "If our system is to survive, we must respect the laws and the judicial system."

The Branch Dividians were also TRAITORS to this country... traitors worse than Jane Fonda could ever dream of being...

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html

Former BATF director Steven Higgins later outlined the information received by his bureau suggesting the potential danger posed by David Koresh and his followers, both to the public and the Davidians themselves. He stated, "I can only say: Remember Jonestown. Or remember the members of the sect in Canada and Switzerland [i.e. The Solar Temple] who committed mass suicide. Or look at what happened in the subways in Japan, where a group [Aum] whose presence was known and considered potentially dangerous by government officials allegedly uncorked a deadly nerve gas. The day has long passed when we can afford to ignore the threat posed by individuals who believe they are subject only to the laws of their god and not those of our government."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...during 1999 former United States Senator John Danforth (Republican-Missouri) conducted an independent investigation regarding Waco. After 10 months, which included interviews with about 900 witnesses, the examination of 2.3 million pages of documents and an expense of between $10 million to $11 million dollars Danforth concluded with "100 percent certainty" that the FBI did not start the fire or shoot at cult members during the fire. He further stated, "There are no doubts in my mind," and concluded, "The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of David Koresh." The Danforth Report published in November 2000 unequivocally reaffirmed the conclusions previously submitted July 21, 2000 in his Special Interim Report, which cited the following five points:

1.       Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;

2.       Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;

3.       Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;
4.         Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former Director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.

5.   Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded twenty others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least twenty of their own people, including five children.

Not content with the court's decision, the Waco Davidian survivors pursued appeals. But in June of 2003 without dissent, a three-judge panel of the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rejected an attempt by the survivors to collect damages from the government. Less than a year later in 2004, the nine justices of the Supreme Court of the United States refused to hear their appeal, questioning the conduct of a judge involved in lawsuits over the Branch Davidian siege outside Waco.

Despite these facts, which have been established repeatedly by the detailed examination and analysis of the evidence and reported through a succession of investigations, hearings and court actions, the Waco Davidian Standoff continues to be a favorite topic amongst anti-government conspiracy theorists. It seems this subculture of suspicion insists upon turning this cult tragedy into a thriving "cottage industry," which has included documentaries, books, videos (available through numerous Web sites) and even speaking tours. It is doubtful that such extremists will ever accept the facts about the Davidians and will instead perpetuate their own alternative version of reality for propaganda and profit.

Propaganda and profit.
Those are the values of the gun-nut anti-gubmint counterculture and their cronies in the NRA.

It is an insult to the people who worked at the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City that you should continue to ask whether we remember Ruby Ridge and Waco.... and then fail to mention the despicable traitorous acts of Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, etc....

Do YOU remember the Oklahoma City bombing?

I do.
I was there.
I sang the service at the catholic church across the street the week after -- window blown out -- windows at the Regency condos/apts across the street also blown out.
I had a friend who worked for the Rotary Club and normally would have been buying breakfast bagels, etc. for staff at the Journal Record building across the street from the Murrah building at around 9:02 am.  But she had to be out of town that day.  She was pretty hysterical that day, if memory serves.

I had a family member completing her masters in social work at OU working at the VA in Norman... many vets were having relapses and the staff had to do a lockdown.
All the televisions in the hospital were showing footage of downtown OKC that looked like a war zone.
They couldn't turn them off fast enough.

Members of the gun counterculture and their ilk are the ones with blood on their hands.
Not the ATF.  Not the federal workers (SSA, ATF, DEA, Army recruiters, etc).
And certainly not those workers' children.

IMHO, anyone who mentions Ruby Ridge and Waco as rallying cries against gun control are domestic terrorist sympathizers and are part of the problem.

I don't blame the weapons; just the gun nuts who stockpile them.

Pity.

 

[TulsaRufnex]

That's Castle Doctrine.  If someone is stupid enough to break into MY house and not expect me feel threatened, let them try it.  If you're not in my house by invite, you better get out.

And I'm not what you would consider a 'gun nut'.  I own two semi-automatic handguns.  Trying to get a shotgun also.

That's your personal choice.
It is respected and supported by law.
It will not be a crime for you to use a gun against an intruder in your own home.

However, to equate that choice as something that makes somebody more patriotic or manly than someone who does not want guns in his/her home?
Well... you know us soccer fans... unlike hockey fans, we're prone to violence.   

[Hoss]

That's your personal choice.
It is respected and supported by law.
It will not be a crime for you to use a gun against an intruder in your own home.

However, to equate that choice as something that makes somebody more patriotic or manly than someone who does not want guns in his/her home?
Well... you know us soccer fans... unlike hockey fans, we're prone to violence.  

You do yourself no good putting words into peoples mouths as I've never said it makes them 'more manly or patriotic'. It makes it my right to defend myself in my home or car.

Right and choice. I don't disparage those who choose not to.

[patric]

1.       Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;  

When I was a volunteer interpreter at Fort Smith NHS, I had the privilege of shaking the hand of one of the Texas Rangers who recovered the flash-bang that the FBI said it didnt fire into the gasoline storage.

They were understandably modest about it, and it resulted in an FBI policy from that point on to stop routinely allowing local authorities crime scene access to conduct their own investigations.

Now, hows that for thread drift?

[TulsaRufnex]

You do yourself no good putting words into peoples mouths as I've never said it makes them 'more manly or patriotic'. It makes it my right to defend myself in my home or car.

Right and choice. I don't disparage those who choose not to.

Wasn't referring to you personally.
Was referring generally to those on this site who live in suburbs or low crime areas who insist on the moral superiority of packing heat.
Carrying a gun shouldn't be looked upon as some sort of badge of honor.
I have friends in Turley who have quite a few firearms in their home.

[Hoss]

Wasn't referring to you personally.
Was referring generally to those on this site who live in suburbs or low crime areas who insist on the moral superiority of packing heat.
Carrying a gun shouldn't be looked upon as some sort of badge of honor.
I have friends in Turley who have quite a few firearms in their home.

In the area I live in, and the circumstances (assisting my Mother) it really didn't dawn upon me to start carrying until last year.  I'm glad I do.  There's usually not a weekend goes by that I don't hear the PoPo Whirlies overhead.  I don't live in a really bad neighborhood, but close enough to some sketchy businesses on Admiral that I do feel the need to make sure both myself and my mother are defended.

And Conan is right.  Having a CC license (now just a carry license) isn't enough.  You need to put in range time at the VERY least, or take a defensive carry course along with the range time (more preferable).  Having a firearm and knowing how to use it aren't the same.  I see too many people sweep the line at ranges with their finger in the guard to scare me.  And when I say too many...I mean at least one.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Wasn't referring to you personally.
Was referring generally to those on this site who live in suburbs or low crime areas who insist on the moral superiority of packing heat.
Carrying a gun shouldn't be looked upon as some sort of badge of honor.
I have friends in Turley who have quite a few firearms in their home.

I have friends in Turley...

Variation on the theme of: "...some of my best friends are <fill in the blank>" - of the group you are disparaging at that particular moment.

[TulsaRufnex]

I have friends in Turley...

Variation on the theme of: "...some of my best friends are <fill in the blank>" - of the group you are disparaging at that particular moment.

And they are good friends.  I've gone to a few of their kid's football games...
And I go to their place more often than they go to mine-- might be different if I had an above ground pool...

Please, go on and tell me how I "disparage" my friends who live in a high crime area for owning guns.
I respect their decision, and likely would be forced to at least have a handgun if I lived in their neighborhood.

Most gun owners don't drink the NRA's koolaid and don't support the rights of survivalists and potential domestic terrorists' to stockpile weapons and ammo.
But maybe that's just my experience... being a soccer-loving yankee and all...  

[heironymouspasparagus]

I have more respect for "Brady bunchers" than I will ever have for the gunscum who insist their rights to buy a bright shiny new military-style phallus trump the rights of parents who want to enroll their kids in elementary schools that are free from armed guards and/or metal detectors.

It is an insult to the people who worked at the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City that you should continue to ask whether we remember Ruby Ridge and Waco.... and then fail to mention the despicable traitorous acts of Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, etc....

Do YOU remember the Oklahoma City bombing?
I do.
I was there.
I sang the service at the catholic church across the street the week after -- window blown out -- windows at the Regency condos/apts across the street also blown out.

I had a family member completing her masters in social work at OU working at the VA in Norman... many vets were having relapses and the staff had to do a lockdown.

Members of the gun counterculture and their ilk are the ones with blood on their hands.
Not the ATF.  Not the federal workers (SSA, ATF, DEA, Army recruiters, etc).
And certainly not those workers' children.

I don't blame the weapons; just the gun nuts who stockpile them.

Pity.
 

All that from the soccer hooligan camp that preaches and advocates the fostering and advancement of hate.... see RufNex signature line.

Pine Ridge reservation confrontation - American Indian Movement.
http://www.whoisleonardpeltier.info/context/aim-american-indian-movement/

"A six-page  FBI memo dated April 24, 1975, "The Use of Special Agents of the FBI in a Paramilitary Law Enforcement Operation in the Indian Country," shows that, two months prior to the Oglala shoot-out, the FBI was preparing for a major armed confrontation with AIM."

Whew!  All these traitors being slung around like there was absolute-morality and not cultural.  In the minds of the Branch Davidians, I suspect they believed they were doing God's work.  Of course, they were wrong - they were victim to the same "cultural morality" concept that their beliefs layered over their actions.  Leading to an absolute-morality fail of the killing of innocents.  You really believe that the FBI and Department of Justice could not have handled that without all the sensationalism and drama and ultimate death??  You really are so ignorant of the FACTs that David Koresh was in town on a regular basis and could have been picked up at any one of MANY times in town visits when he was NOT ensconced in his fortress and loaded down with his massive arsenal??  Yeah...clever planning by DOJ.  But there would not have been the headlines that would have accrued from a successful storming of the fortress without the fires, death and destruction.  There was MORE than enough blame to go around at Waco for ALL the sides involved.

McVeigh just ends up being a classic counter to the ignorant assertions that AK-47s are the problem rather than the hearts and minds of men being the problem.  Can't believe you would try to use that.  And we have talked about that a lot.  But hey, why not...?  And yeah, I remember it - SWMBO was on the phone to friends in the Southwestern Bell building at exactly the time when the bomb went off.  And blew out all their windows...  kind of traumatic.  

You seem to be implying that you were in the Murrah building...is that right??  Or just in OKC like another few hundred thousand people that day?  Everyone in this state has a friend - or at the very least an acquaintance - who was nearby at that time.  So where is your outrage about private ownership and use of Ryder trucks, diesel fuel, and ammonium nitrate??  And yeah, before you put your foot in mouth one more time - it IS the exact same comparison, even if you really don't understand that fact.  Sadly.


Members of the gun counterculture and their ilk are the ones with blood on their hands.
Not the ATF.  Not the federal workers (SSA, ATF, DEA, Army recruiters, etc).


So wrong on so many levels.  The ATF has had a long history of horrendous management.  Stupid actions.  Inept execution of operations.  And many times, outright criminal activity.  You do remember Fast and Furious?  And Baby Bush's version before that one.  They do have blood on their hands.  Much more than the tens of millions of law abiding gun owners in this country.  It is so sad that you let your Brady Bunch Psychosis blur reality so bad.  In your strange colored sky world, the government appears to be omnipotent and perfect.  Definitely wrong....really ought to have your "eyes" checked.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And they are good friends.  I've gone to a few of their kid's football games...
And I go to their place more often than they go to mine-- might be different if I had an above ground pool...

Please, go on and tell me how I "disparage" my friends who live in a high crime area for owning guns.
I respect their decision, and likely would be forced to at least have a handgun if I lived in their neighborhood.

Most gun owners don't drink the NRA's koolaid and don't support the rights of survivalists and potential domestic terrorists' to stockpile weapons and ammo.
But maybe that's just my experience... being a soccer-loving yankee and all...  

"We've only been in the league two and a half years and already half the teams hate us... Give me another two years and we'll have them all."


Culture of hate and violence - by direct admission, and even an expression of pride, of one of the leaders of that particular cult.