Raise the Minimum Wage

[Conan71]

Who needs minimum wage? this girl has it all figured out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LWlkXRZ3CA

I can get my EBT on at Dominos and Subway?

Damn, I'm quittin' my job and gettin' an EBT!!!

[Teatownclown]

Bzzzzzt!!! WRONG

  Someone who bounces from one minimum wage job to another for 30 years has done so because they have not sought to better themself or they don't bring a set of skills to the job that makes them worth more in the job market. (BESIDES A BAD GRAMMAR REMARK, THIS IS NOT TRUE)

What would you be worth in the job market without an engineering degree or prior experience for what you now do? (DUH)

The best thing you can do to improve someone's overall income and purchasing power is to improve their education level so that they can leave the bottom rung of the job market.  Simply mandating minimally skilled jobs are now worth x-amount more does absolutely no long term favors to those who do nothing to improve their job skills or marketability to employers looking for employees who are worth more money to them.

Coco, you almost come across as believing in education...just not public education.

A huge part of our economy works part time not because they need training to do other jobs, but out of personal situations.

I've read your posts and must come to the conclusion your inflexible mindset regarding "takers" and "gubmint" and economics prohibits you from supporting the poor and unfortunate cause.

I have heard the whiners for years every time we raised the floor on wages and it has never seemed to adversely affect our over all economy. Quite the opposite...

[nathanm]

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/12poverty.shtml

What do you think the minimum wage should be?  For a family of 4, $11/hr would still have them at the poverty level. 

I used 2080 hrs/yr, 52 weeks at 40 hr/wk.

I'm not sure exactly. In terms of buying power, the minimum wage is presently near the low end of the scale. In 1956 the minimum wage went up from $0.75/hr to $1/hr. That dollar bought more than the $7.25 a person making minimum wage gets paid today. In terms of 1996 dollars, about 80 cents more. In 1963 it went up to $1.25/hr for $1.15. That's $6.41 in 1996 dollars. Presently, we're at $4.97. I guess it could be worse, it was down to $4.04 in 2006.

Seems like $9 would be a good place to start. I don't feel like a single person making minimum wage should be able to support three other people, assuming no assistance. That hasn't been possible (for most) even among the middle class in many years now. Two workers working full time at minimum wage should absolutely be able to support a family of four at slightly above the poverty line, IMO. Anything less is just exploitative.

Conan, your spiel about education is all well and good, but ignores today's realities, where the job market is not robust enough to absorb all the existing college graduates, much less a bunch more working their way up. There are some exceptions, of course, but in the main, college degrees aren't actually getting new graduates jobs. That said, trade school probably is a reasonable goal for a lot of these people.

Gaspar, your position is consistent with economic theory, but as you often like to tell me, that theory is not borne out in practice. We don't have a great explanation of why, but minimum wage increases don't actually increase inflation commensurately, nor do non-minimum wage workers typically see a general increase or decrease in wages.

Maybe this time will be different?

[Conan71]

Conan, your spiel about education is all well and good, but ignores today's realities, where the job market is not robust enough to absorb all the existing college graduates, much less a bunch more working their way up. There are some exceptions, of course, but in the main, college degrees aren't actually getting new graduates jobs. That said, trade school probably is a reasonable goal for a lot of these people.

Gaspar, your position is consistent with economic theory, but as you often like to tell me, that theory is not borne out in practice. We don't have a great explanation of why, but minimum wage increases don't actually increase inflation commensurately, nor do non-minimum wage workers typically see a general increase or decrease in wages.

Maybe this time will be different?

Instead of your message of hopelessness, what do you propose would increase the buying power of those working the bottom rung jobs?

Simply sitting by and saying it's not worth trying to improve one's self because other people are failing with better educations is lame.  You have to make yourself exceptional to a potential employer, over all other candidates.  Either that or take a risk and strike out on your own and build your own business.  It's been done time and time again.

[Conan71]

Coco, you almost come across as believing in education...just not public education.

A huge part of our economy works part time not because they need training to do other jobs, but out of personal situations.

I've read your posts and must come to the conclusion your inflexible mindset regarding "takers" and "gubmint" and economics prohibits you from supporting the poor and unfortunate cause.

I have heard the whiners for years every time we raised the floor on wages and it has never seemed to adversely affect our over all economy. Quite the opposite...

And they work jobs which are worthy of part time minimal pay.  What's your point?

You have no fresh ideas.  You only exist to lampoon those you don't agree with in general without really considering what their real values and positions are.  I happen to believe and have stated repeatedly education is the best investment government can make.  I think full ride college or technical school should be available for anyone who needs or wants it and perhaps we wouldn't require as much room in the prison industry.

My very simple point, and I'm typing slow because I know you are a slow reader, is that raising the minimum wage accomplishes little in helping to increase the comfort level or purchasing power of those mired in low wage jobs.  Sure there might be a temporary gain in spending power but once the economy has to absorb the necessary inflation which comes with a mass rise in payroll, it's still a wash.  Raising the minimum wage is not an example of income mobility nor class mobility which is really what we want to accomplish, right?

The economy is still quite fragile, with rising fuel prices, employers threatening to cut hours of part-timers to avoid the Obamacare penalty (it was in the news this morning some Oklahoma food retailers will be cutting back hours), etc. raising the minimum wage right now could be a serious blow due to the inflation which would result.  If the economy was singing along like it was in the late 1990's I could agree that the impact on the overall economy would be minimal, but it's a long long way from those halcyon days.

[nathanm]

Instead of your message of hopelessness, what do you propose would increase the buying power of those working the bottom rung jobs?

Simply sitting by and saying it's not worth trying to improve one's self because other people are failing with better educations is lame.  You have to make yourself exceptional to a potential employer, over all other candidates.  Either that or take a risk and strike out on your own and build your own business.  It's been done time and time again.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do what they can, I'm saying that the paths that we as a society push people towards are not viable at the moment. That may change. I sure hope so. Until then, what would you have them do? It's pretty hard, for example, to start your own business if you're already living paycheck to paycheck. It's a laudable goal, but not realistic for most. I don't claim to have the answers. These are hard problems. All I can really say is that the solutions of the past are not solutions that will work today.

[Teatownclown]

And they work jobs which are worthy of part time minimal pay.  What's your point?

You have no fresh ideas.  You only exist to lampoon those you don't agree with in general without really considering what their real values and positions are.  I happen to believe and have stated repeatedly education is the best investment government can make.  I think full ride college or technical school should be available for anyone who needs or wants it and perhaps we wouldn't require as much room in the prison industry.

My very simple point, and I'm typing slow because I know you are a slow reader, is that raising the minimum wage accomplishes little in helping to increase the comfort level or purchasing power of those mired in low wage jobs.  Sure there might be a temporary gain in spending power but once the economy has to absorb the necessary inflation which comes with a mass rise in payroll, it's still a wash.  Raising the minimum wage is not an example of income mobility nor class mobility which is really what we want to accomplish, right?

The economy is still quite fragile, with rising fuel prices, employers threatening to cut hours of part-timers to avoid the Obamacare penalty (it was in the news this morning some Oklahoma food retailers will be cutting back hours), etc. raising the minimum wage right now could be a serious blow due to the inflation which would result.  If the economy was singing along like it was in the late 1990's I could agree that the impact on the overall economy would be minimal, but it's a long long way from those halcyon days.

I have plenty of ideas. What do you mean by fresh? Lampoon? Why not? I'm surrounded in this state by idiots, religious nuts, unhealthy, dangerous and mean people. I am a fortunate outsider.

The economy wouldn't be fragile if confidence were restored in our tax code and our ability to become efficient. Minimum wage will be an excuse and not a contributor to inflation. You think wages moved gasoline up this month? Get real. The 1990's were based on bubbles. We are on much firmer ground today despite what the fear mongers would want you to think.

Don't look back.

[Gaspar]

I have plenty of ideas. What do you mean by fresh? Lampoon? Why not? I'm surrounded in this state by idiots, religious nuts, unhealthy, dangerous and mean people. I am a fortunate outsider.

The economy wouldn't be fragile if confidence were restored in our tax code and our ability to become efficient. Minimum wage will be an excuse and not a contributor to inflation. You think wages moved gasoline up this month? Get real. The 1990's were based on bubbles. We are on much firmer ground today despite what the fear mongers would want you to think.

Don't look back.

We must look back or else we risk making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

[nathanm]

We must look back or else we risk making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

Now that's some serious irony right there.

[Gaspar]

The history of liberty is the history of limitations on the power of government, not the increase of it. When we resist, therefore, the concentration of power, we are resisting the processes of death, because concentration of power is what always precedes the destruction of human liberties. – President Woodrow Wilson

[Teatownclown]

We must look back or else we risk making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

Now see....THAT'S a fundamental difference in our way of looking at things. I believe looking back will serve little to help unless we are headed into The Great Depression II which we aren't because of the bank bailout and strong action to re-inflate the economy by the Fed.

I think Krugman has been correct all along. Few of us who have witnessed the tax code back when rates were much higher than today would have a problem going back to that tax code format to encourage investment, but why bother?

Kinda like how so many think our Economic policies and our Economic choices should be made much on the same basis as our family budget.

Looking back we would have to paint the same backdrops of history. That's why bother.

[heironymouspasparagus]

No one knows where your ambiguous numbers come from, but either way, you purposefully disregard a significant amount of data.  There is no such thing as a Poor Person or a "1%er" over time. Those are static snapshots, that do not reflect the dynamics of income mobility.

I don't expect for you to accept this or even acknowledge it for that matter.

I acknowledge it.  And accept the fact that Horwitz is a talking head for some truly fringe economic fantasies.  Are you an Austrian, too??  Would explain some things....  And being an adherent of elimination of central banks and fractional-reserve banking.  Oh, yeah...and giving people the choice of either being on the gold standard** (100% reserve, no less), OR that each individual be allowed to choose what to accept as money.... this week, I will accept AK-47's.  Next week, maybe some ice cream sandwiches, since I'm running low - only 3 left!

Yeah, that guy's got it going, if he really believes all that stuff!


I'm thinking I will go with Oregon State university when they say that the equivalent value of the minimum wage peaked in 1968 at an adjusted value of about $10.25 in today's dollars, versus today's 25% LESS $7.25.  Nothing at all ambiguous or derived from a fantasy world outlook about "going back in time" to the "good old days" of the gold standard!

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html


**Might be interesting to try the gold standard again sometime...estimates are that the sum total of all the gold mined/found in the history of human infatuation with the stuff is somewhere in the $ 5 - 6 trillion at today's crazy prices!!  Now, that would bring about a truly exciting time of economic dislocation, amazing grief, hardship, privation, and probably plenty of death and destruction to spice the mixture!  And likely a big old dose of deflation, to boot!  Maybe THAT is the secret motivation of the gold standard freaks...they are adrenaline junkies of the highest order!  We have seen what we will do in the middle east for a little oil (Iraq, if a reminder is needed)....what would we do to get our share of gold - we don't currently have anywhere near the few trillions we would be need to be satisfied?

[heironymouspasparagus]

I bet this is a big hit in some quarters, too.  He uses oil as an example, but completely ignores fresh water.  Tantalum.  Uranium - fuel grade.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcWkN4ngR2Y

[nathanm]

There is no such thing as a Poor Person or a "1%er" over time.

That's half true. There is a reasonable amount of income mobility between say, the top 5% and top 1% (although not the top 0.1%). There is much lower income mobility among those lower in the income distribution. Among developed nations, our income mobility is presently very close to the lowest and has been for some time.