Oklahoma Joes Fundraiser Kerfuffle

[heironymouspasparagus]

First of, it is not a choice, it's simply a matter of believing or not.  Saying it's a choice is one of the most idiotic statements that can be made on the subject.   Beyond that, it is simply the lack of belief in any supernatural deities.  It does not require anything else. 

But how do you get to that point of believing or not?  Do you not study/investigate/learn/analyze the subject first, then achieve a point of view - believing or disbelieving...??  Was there no input that took you from the blank slate you were at birth to the point where you are now?  If there was, then that would have to imply a decision process of some sort involving a choice of some sort.     ??


I find it difficult to believe (no pun intended) that you just spontaneously woke up one day and said "I don't believe" without some kind of previous input, even if subliminal and not rising to a blatantly conscious level...??  How would the neurons arrange themselves in that fashion without some type of previous electrical activity - input...

Very good friend of mine who is very enthusiastically atheist (amazing Mechanical Engineer!!) was raised Catholic and is a product of the Catholic schools.  His input was at least in part from the nuns.... he appears to have lived the cliche of nuns with rulers in school.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It's easier to get forgiven than to get permission.

Different world - that's engineering.  No faith there, just the Oompa-Loompa's of science doing the hard work!!  The 1% of the population that is maniacally driven to create wonderful things for an unappreciative society.

[Hoss]

But how do you get to that point of believing or not?  Do you not study/investigate/learn/analyze the subject first, then achieve a point of view - believing or disbelieving...??  Was there no input that took you from the blank slate you were at birth to the point where you are now?  If there was, then that would have to imply a decision process of some sort involving a choice of some sort.     ??


I find it difficult to believe (no pun intended) that you just spontaneously woke up one day and said "I don't believe" without some kind of previous input, even if subliminal and not rising to a blatantly conscious level...??  How would the neurons arrange themselves in that fashion without some type of previous electrical activity - input...

Very good friend of mine who is very enthusiastically atheist (amazing Mechanical Engineer!!) was raised Catholic and is a product of the Catholic schools.  His input was at least in part from the nuns.... he appears to have lived the cliche of nuns with rulers in school.

How do you know he ever believed to begin with?  I know some people who just didn't attend church at an early age and were never 'indoctrinated' into the religious mindset.  So they never had to make a choice, it was there from the start.

[custosnox]

But how do you get to that point of believing or not?  Do you not study/investigate/learn/analyze the subject first, then achieve a point of view - believing or disbelieving...??  Was there no input that took you from the blank slate you were at birth to the point where you are now?  If there was, then that would have to imply a decision process of some sort involving a choice of some sort.     ??


I find it difficult to believe (no pun intended) that you just spontaneously woke up one day and said "I don't believe" without some kind of previous input, even if subliminal and not rising to a blatantly conscious level...??  How would the neurons arrange themselves in that fashion without some type of previous electrical activity - input...

Very good friend of mine who is very enthusiastically atheist (amazing Mechanical Engineer!!) was raised Catholic and is a product of the Catholic schools.  His input was at least in part from the nuns.... he appears to have lived the cliche of nuns with rulers in school.

Questioning isn't the same thing as choosing.  You read something that doesn't make sense, or you hear something that makes you start to wonder.  I'm not saying it's a spontaneous process, but just as a person doesn't choose to believe in their particular faith, you don't choose to stop believing.  You might choose to start following the tenets of a faith and eventually, though not always, start believing it, but you don't choose to actually believe it.  Don't believe me?  Why not?  Are you simply choosing not to?  Think about it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Questioning isn't the same thing as choosing.  You read something that doesn't make sense, or you hear something that makes you start to wonder.  I'm not saying it's a spontaneous process, but just as a person doesn't choose to believe in their particular faith, you don't choose to stop believing.  You might choose to start following the tenets of a faith and eventually, though not always, start believing it, but you don't choose to actually believe it.  Don't believe me?  Why not?  Are you simply choosing not to?  Think about it.

Yep.  That's pretty much what I was saying...I "choose not to believe" - actually find it difficult to believe - you came to that belief - or not belief - without having some kind of input.  Even though you may not have been aware of the accumulation of input.  That input had to have started when you were born, 'cause at that point, you were pretty much a blank slate waiting to be written to - unless you were completely different from the other 7 billion of us....  And how can you get from blank slate status to where you are today without input - followed by "action" determined by your interpretation of that input??

I think that maybe people start their belief in faith by what the parental units put one through.  Same thing with non-believers...  At some point, though, people do evaluate what they have been indoctrinated with during childhood, some earlier, some later.  And it may well be a continuous, ongoing process that may lead to an 'inflection' point of some sort...or not.  Some are 'reborn', becoming recommitted to their belief.  Some walk away from the whole thing - like my friend - not believing any more.  Some just keep on their current path.  People not indoctrinated in childhood may continue as is, or change to something different.  There is input that comes at everyone, all the time.  Every piece of that is a bit of information that one uses to build up the experience base - those neural connections.  Making choices whether to accept or reject; embrace or not, each particle of information. 

If you were raised in a church, then somewhere came not to believe, where was that point?  If raised outside a church, certainly there must have been a barrage of input from various church related entities such that there had to be a 'sorting' process - a picking and choosing of which info to accept/believe or not.  (There has been plenty of discussion here about various religious/non-religious concepts.)

[heironymouspasparagus]

Storms are done for the night here in north/central/south/western/eastern Oklahoma....great show!  Much lightning, lots of rain, several cars stuck in the water around the middle of the state.  And a good solid drenching in the rain! 

Beautiful Oklahoma storm night!  Time for a nice, hot bedtime snack!  Hooray for Pop Tarts!!!!!

[custosnox]

Yep.  That's pretty much what I was saying...I "choose not to believe" - actually find it difficult to believe - you came to that belief - or not belief - without having some kind of input.  Even though you may not have been aware of the accumulation of input.  That input had to have started when you were born, 'cause at that point, you were pretty much a blank slate waiting to be written to - unless you were completely different from the other 7 billion of us....  And how can you get from blank slate status to where you are today without input - followed by "action" determined by your interpretation of that input??

I think that maybe people start their belief in faith by what the parental units put one through.  Same thing with non-believers...  At some point, though, people do evaluate what they have been indoctrinated with during childhood, some earlier, some later.  And it may well be a continuous, ongoing process that may lead to an 'inflection' point of some sort...or not.  Some are 'reborn', becoming recommitted to their belief.  Some walk away from the whole thing - like my friend - not believing any more.  Some just keep on their current path.  People not indoctrinated in childhood may continue as is, or change to something different.  There is input that comes at everyone, all the time.  Every piece of that is a bit of information that one uses to build up the experience base - those neural connections.  Making choices whether to accept or reject; embrace or not, each particle of information. 

If you were raised in a church, then somewhere came not to believe, where was that point?  If raised outside a church, certainly there must have been a barrage of input from various church related entities such that there had to be a 'sorting' process - a picking and choosing of which info to accept/believe or not.  (There has been plenty of discussion here about various religious/non-religious concepts.)

I challenge you to choose to believe that I'm typing in French, and that French is your native language.

[Gaspar]

Close, but a little off.  It's not that society follows religion, but more the other way around, as a way to control the masses and explain the unknown.
Wow, you really don't know what you are talking about.  First of, it is not a choice, it's simply a matter of believing or not.  Saying it's a choice is one of the most idiotic statements that can be made on the subject.   Beyond that, it is simply the lack of belief in any supernatural deities.  It does not require anything else.  And yes, atheists of the 1500s are very different from the atheists of today, but guess what, so is every freakin one else.  Oh, and in case you didn't notice, all groups are free to define their own ethics and morality, though they all are bound by cultural standards.  The primary difference between atheists and theists in this respect is that theists pretend (well, most believe it, but belief does not make fact) that they have some holy scripture that they base theirs on, therefore making it better than everyone else's.  and all of that is one of the biggest crock of shite that I've ever seen, and pushed by so many theists that it's truly sad.  I am willing to bet that I know a great many more atheists than you, and on a large part, they tend to be a good deal happier than the theists that I know. (actually, I think there is a study on this out there as well, but just going from memory here and can't back it up)  Of course the general public sees the ones that are outspoken, often truly pissed off about how they have been treated by others.  These folks, and yes, I'm one of them, only make up a small portion of the community (and those who don't even associate with the community, though that does not keep them from being an atheist).  I'm willing to bet that everyone in this forum actually knows several atheists and don't even know it.  Oh, and the group that is trying to push everyone else into atheism fall into the category of atheism known also as anti-theism.  These are the ones that think that religion is inherently toxic.  No, I don't fall into this group.  While I think we would be better off without all of these mythologies, I feel everyone should be allowed their beliefs (or lack there of), as long as these are not forced on others, and do not hurt others.  However, because the angry and anti groups are generally the most vocal, these are the ones that most people think represent the vast majority of us.

If it is not a choice to believe or not to believe in something, than it just happens?  Help me to understand your statement a bit more.  If it is not a choice, as you contend forcefully, then free will is not at play.  "Fate or faith" would not support your position.

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will."
-Rush

[carltonplace]

Who cares what his religious views are or if he can't abide the non-believers, infidels or even those that have different Gods and Jesuses.?

Why would anyone want to buy BBQ from a jackhole?

[Hoss]

Who cares what his religious views are or if he can't abide the non-believers, infidels or even those that have different Gods and Jesuses.?

Why would anyone want to buy BBQ from a jackhole?

Threadwinner.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Who cares what his religious views are or if he can't abide the non-believers, infidels or even those that have different Gods and Jesuses.?

Why would anyone want to buy BBQ from a jackhole?

Sound of a bell at ringside of a prize fight - ding, ding, ding, ding......

Sweet!

[Conan71]

The primary difference between atheists and theists in this respect is that theists pretend (well, most believe it, but belief does not make fact) that they have some holy scripture that they base theirs on, therefore making it better than everyone else's.   

Yet, I read the writings of atheists who believe their system of beliefs is superior to theists and they are quite condescending to anyone who has religious beliefs.

[Hoss]

Yet, I read the writings of atheists who believe their system of beliefs is superior to theists and they are quite condescending to anyone who has religious beliefs.

Likely because they're channelling 'an eye for an eye'.  I know Bill Maher is like this.  He states he was raised Catholic, so I guess I see why he is like he is.

All beliefs/non-beliefs do this.  The believers do this mainly because they can't accept the fact that someone doesn't believe in God.  Non-believers do this (I believe) to partially ridicule those who worship a deity, and as payback for those believers who try to push their beliefs on them.  My brother-in-law tried ministering to me until I told him I'd crack him one if he didn't stop.  He hasn't ministered to me since.

I'm not trying to tell you to believe how I believe, so keep your religion away from me.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I challenge you to choose to believe that I'm typing in French, and that French is your native language.

We are.  What language did YOU think we were talking in??

[AquaMan]

C'est finis.