Is there room for another major league sports team in Oklahoma?

[Laramie]

Sports fans in Oklahoma City-Tulsa area, you think small and therefore that's where you will end up.

The Oklahoma City Calvary of the old CBA aveage 5,200 during its best year in the Continential Basketball Association.

Who would have ever thought that Oklahoma City would be a viable NBA market averaging 18,203 per game for the last two seasons; with over 85 consecutive sellouts.  This puts the Thunder among the top 12  franchises in the NBA and competitive among the smaller markets like New Orleans, Memphis, Indianapolis, Sacramento and Salt Lake City.

ESPN NBA Attendance 2012-13: http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

I have lived in Tulsa and I can tell you that Tulsa has a lot more potential to support a Major League Soccer franchise or a National Hockey League franchise than Oklahoma City.   With the NBA already in OKC the competition for sports dollars is nearly maxed out.

Tulsa could definitely become a viable NHL market.  Your market area would include Wichita & Oklahoma City.

[TulsaRufnex]

That's not what Brad Lund's crystal ball says...

Attention, fútbol heads: Pro soccer is here!
Andrew Gilman May 8th, 2013
http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-18199-get-your-kicks.html

"My crystal ball says that Oklahoma City's next major-league sports franchise will be in MLS (Major League Soccer)," said Lund, head of Sold Out Strategies, the managing partner for the OKC-based team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oklahoma City has historically supported its minor- and major-league teams like no other city in the country," said Ayala.

Or maybe it's just a magic 8 ball?  

[RecycleMichael]

I tire of your posts Laramie. You keep talking about how wonderful OKC is and how you have a great NBA team then you belittle us by saying that maybe Tulsa could get a soccer team or some other second tier team if just really tried.

Nobody in Tulsa wants to read about how wonderful everything is in OKC. This is TulsaNow and we don't need to be talked down to by you.

[Conan71]

I really didn't take his post that way, only that Tulsa could be a really good NHL or major league soccer franchise town.  I don't follow hockey enough to know if it's popular enough in the region to support an NHL franchise outside a market the size of Dallas, Houston, or KC. 

Anyone who understands what drives ticket sales understands that if the Thunder were a bottom tier team, they would be lucky to sell 10,000 seats per game and would probably be looking for another market already.

We are also fortunate to have some really good collegiate sports to follow in this area even if we are not a hot-spot for pro sports.

[TulsaRufnex]

Here's a blast from the past... now that Tulsans have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight regarding the success of the BOk Center and OneOk Park, it might be nice to read this:

Tulsa Project a No-Brainer for Fans
By John Klein on Oct 13, 1997
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Tulsa_Project_a_No_Brainer_for_Fans/19971012_Sp_b1klein

IF YOU like sports, and we assume you do since you're reading this, the Tulsa Project is a no-brainer.

You go cast your yes vote and we'll see you downtown at the NCAA Basketball Tournament. We'll be seeing you at Big 12 Conference and WAC championship events. You'll be checking out Olympic swimmers, divers, gymnasts and wrestlers.

You'll see exhibition NBA and NHL games. You will see, if Oklahoma City lands an NHL franchise, real NHL games.

The Tulsa Oilers, one of the top minor hockey franchises in the country, will finally get a regulation size rink and enough seats for every game.

Sometime in the future, Major League Soccer will be back in Tulsa.

How do we know this? It's our business to know these things. It's our business to talk with the people who make decisions in sports.

If anyone tries to tell you differently, ask them if they've ever spoken with Big 12 Commissioner Steve Hatchell, WAC Commissioner Karl Benson or Bill Hancock, director of the NCAA Tournament. Ask them if they've talked to folks with MLS.

All of them believe Tulsa is a terrific venue for sports events. They aren't interested right now for obvious reasons -- there's no place to play.
However, if you build it they will come. Don't let any of the opponents of the project tell you differently. We know for a fact.

When was the last time any of these "no" backers talked with anyone at the Tulsa-based NAIA? The NAIA, which pumps millions into the local economy each year, loves the Tulsa Project. Steve Baker, executive director of the NAIA, plans to bring dozens of events to Tulsa if the project is approved.

Opponents of the Tulsa Project would like you to believe that Tulsa will be unable to attract big- time sports events. Wrong. The only way we will be unable to attract big sports events is if we don't build the sports facilities included in the Tulsa Project.

The NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament will come. Tulsa was selling out NCAA games back when the NCAA wasn't an automatic sellout. However, the NCAA hasn't been back to Tulsa in over 15 years.  The reason is simple. No place to play. It takes a minimum of 13,500 seats to host NCAA Tournament games. The tournament has outgrown our facilities, not the city.

In fact, Oklahoma City will play host to NCAA Tournament games this spring for the second time in five years. We have two deluxe hotels in downtown Tulsa and plenty of other hotel space. Oklahoma City has one mid- range hotel located next to the 15,000-seat Myriad, which will soon be replaced by a new 18,000-seat arena. Oklahoma City is looking ahead. It isn't standing still.

The Big 12 and WAC decide several dozen championships each year. Both conferences are shopping around championship events. We don't have a football stadium large enough but the Tulsa Project would give us facilities to bid on basketball, volleyball, wrestling, gymnastics, soccer, field hockey, swimming and diving, track and field.
Tulsa will go to the NCAA and bid on those events. And, we're not just talking about Division I events. How about Division II events with state schools like Northeastern State and Central Oklahoma? We can go to south Tulsa and bid for NAIA national championship events.

We've also heard the argument that sports venues will not revitalize downtown. The next time someone tells you that ask them for one example.
We can name you dozens of places where sports facilities were the catalyst for a new vibrant downtown. There's the obvious ones like Indianapolis, Denver, Baltimore and Cleveland.
But you don't have to look at major league cities. You don't even have to look further than our backyard.

Take a trip to Oklahoma City and see the downtown construction. That's all being driven by the construction of a new baseball park and arena.
Or, drive over to Little Rock where construction is under way on a new 16,000-seat downtown arena. It has spurred a construction boom.
This is the right time, right tax and right project. Hope to see you for March Madness in our hometown.

The downtown "superblock" off 4th and Elgin that we all assumed would be the prime location for the new ballpark is still sitting idle.
The area sorely needs an "anchor" to spur development.
If you think that moving a Unitarian church downtown and having Tulsa Opera move its operations to the old fire station will spur pedestrian friendly development and new construction, please point out examples in other cities of when and how this has ever happened...

[Conan71]

The downtown "superblock" off 4th and Elgin that we all assumed would be the prime location for the new ballpark is still sitting idle.
The area sorely needs an "anchor" to spur development.

If you think that moving a Unitarian church downtown and having Tulsa Opera move its operations to the old fire station will spur pedestrian friendly development and new construction, please point out examples in other cities of when and how this has ever happened...

Moving the offices of the local opera always spurs massive development, doesn't it? 

[AquaMan]

I had to put myself back in a 1997 mind set with a Twilight zone sort of mindtrick. I have to say, I was opposed to the plan even though a member of the Sports Commission who lived next door tried in vain to explain it to me. My life was full of self employment, a teenager with a drivers permit, another with school problems and one in kindergarten, house maintenance, loans, an expanding belly etc. and I had no vision for such things. Seems obvious now but at the time it was not.

Only 29% voted in this last mayoral election. Surprises me not.  I forgive myself for my ignorance and I now understand what is happening with the next wave of pre-occupied citizens. It is up to the youngers, who aren't so distracted, the idle wealthy  , and the empty nesters, who still remember the stresses, to step up and plan well.

Look at the average age and background of mayoral and county candidates. They are late 50's to late 60's with some accumulated wealth. One hopes they will be allowed to lead.

[DTowner]

Ah, 1997.  I had just moved to Tulsa and things were looking great.  The CFS "miracle" was touted routinely by the Tulsa World and it was hiring as fast as warm bodies could be found to put up with the Bartmann way.  MCI was bursting at the seems at the Cherokee Industrial Park.  Williams was about to come out from under its non-compete agreement in the telecommunications field and would soon spend billions on Williams Communications, including building the first new high-rise in downtown in more than a decade.  Williams was starting to trade electricity like it was pork bellies as energy companies discovered a "marked to market" accounting golden goose that would just keep on laying golden eggs.  Dollar Thrifty had not yet become DTAG, but was discovering the wonders of "securitization" as a way to raise huge sums of money to fund its growth.  Tulsa's unemployment rate was around 2% and every restaurant in town seemed to have a "Now Hiring" banner hung out front.

Meanwhile, OKC was in the midst of building some silly little San Antonio-lite canal and Tulsans could still comfortably and confidentially laugh at how much better we were compared to them.

Then along came this crazy idea that Tulsa was going to become the amateur sports Mecca by transforming downtown by building aerodromes, aquatic center and a soccer stadium.  Oh, and a big arena like the one OKC was building.  The Brady District was going to be Tulsa's answer to Bricktown, even if at the time it only consisted of the Snooty Fox, Caz's, Spaghetti Warehouse and Mexicali.

Funny how things often don't turn out as planned.

[TulsaRufnex]

Moving the offices of the local opera always spurs massive development, doesn't it?  

I'm definitely not the guy who wants to disrespect one of the best and oldest regional opera companies in the country, but.... wouldn't TO offices and rehearsal space be better served in the Brady "Arts" district?  I don't think most Tulsans know the amazing and oftentimes glorious history of Tulsa Opera.  And it seems all the incredible pictures and placards from decades of history would be most appropriately placed in a museum down the street from Guthrie Green rather than an isolated former fire station.  Having all that stuff just sitting around unviewed at 16th & Boulder seems a waste... my first opera experience in the 80s was an Ed Purrington Tulsa Opera production of Verdi's Don Carlo featuring:  Tatiana Troyanos, Rosalind Plowright, Samuel Ramey... with Jerome Hines in a bit part cameo as the Grand Inquisitor.   If you don't know and don't care who any of these people are, please google the names, then get back to me...  

Take my challenge and stand on the corner of 2nd (or 3rd) and Greenwood... look south... or stand at 5th & Frankfort where the old fire station is located... IMHO, new construction of pedestrian friendly development in that area will take massive public subsidies.... er, uh.... <cough, cough>... bribes... <cough, cough>.  I've seen the small, public park slated for that area, but don't understand the reasoning behind it, when we have a great (yet largely underused) park off 6th & Peoria... all this while $100mil is being spent to transform one area of Brookside/Riverside property along the Arkansas...

As for The Tulsa Project, I remember being frustrated at it looking like a hodge-podge of half-baked ideas... a 5k soccer/track & field stadium would need to be expanded by at least 15k seats to satisfy Major League Soccer... the natatorium would be used how often, exactly?... "It's Tulsa Time" was much closer to being approved by voters... the next mayoral election was about "Vision," and we got LaFortune to pin down and successfully sell Vision 2025.  I don't think Bill knew how close Tulsa was to getting a league-owned MLS team until he got into office, and I don't think anyone understood what a bargain basement price MLS was when we coulda got a team with local ownership for $10mil to $15mil... the expansion fee has more than quadrupled since 2003...

This city could still use some "vision"....

[Conan71]

Ruf,

Good points, and I agree on most.

If I had to guess, it looks like East End will happen after the infill in the Brady, Greenwood, and high rise sector is complete and developers are horny for more land to build on.  Another public venue wouldn't be a bad thing in the East End, curious though if the development cartel will try and prevent that from happening so there will be some choice space for more residential or larger scale retail to cater to those living in and around the IDL.

[davideinstein]

Thunder are successful because of Kevin Durant. There is not really a market for a second team.

[Conan71]

Thunder are successful because of Kevin Durant. There is not really a market for a second team.

Durant can't carry the team on his shoulders alone.  Look what happened when they lost Westbrook.

[TulsaRufnex]

Oklahoma City Roughnecks in the new NASL?

Interview: NASL Commissioner Bill Peterson talks expansion (NASL and MLS), U.S. Open Cup, and other soccer league issues
http://www.indyweek.com/triangleoffense/archives/2013/06/15/interview-nasl-commissioner-bill-peterson-talks-expansion-nasl-and-mls-us-open-cup-and-other-soccer-league-issues

You made some comments recently about possible expansion into Los Angeles, and I've heard some rumors that there may be expansion into Oklahoma City. What can you tell me about that?

We're in conversations in three or four cities that I think are positive and moving at the speed I want them to move. But all this has to go before a board meeting for a vote, and that's probably not going to happen before July. So nothing's imminent yet. Here's what I can say: we're coming across potential ownership groups in cities that are exciting and people who understand what we're trying to do as a league and fit in very well.

What are the markets under consideration?

Yes, we're looking at Los Angeles. Yes, we're in discussions with a group out of Oklahoma City. There are two others I'd rather not say because they'd rather I not say. And then once we get through that process, either yes or no, there's another group of four or five cities that I'm going to get started on in August that are very strong and have people signaling that they have interest.

[TulsaRufnex]

Another article from John Klein.....

Tulsa Athletics looking to lead rebirth in soccer
By JOHN KLEIN Senior Sports Columnist on Jun 7, 2013
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Tulsa_Athletics_looking_to_lead_rebirth_in_soccer/20130607_203_B1_Drille777503?subj=2

Drillers Stadium is not an ideal home for the Tulsa Athletics, the latest soccer franchise trying to carve out a fan base in the city.

But the stadium, like the team, is a start.

"Everyone has to start somewhere and finding a home at Drillers Stadium was great for our new team," said Sonny Dalesandro, one of the owners of the Athletics.

The Athletics, an amateur team, is a member of the National Premier Soccer League, a nationwide association of soccer teams.

It is a long way from Major League Soccer, the top level of soccer in the United States.

It is a long way from the North American Soccer League, the premier soccer league in the U.S. in the 1970s and 1980s and home of the Tulsa Roughnecks.

But Dalesandro hopes the Athletics is the first step to bringing back high-level soccer to a city that embraced the sport 30 years ago.

"I don't know what the future holds for soccer in our town," Dalesandero said. "We just wanted to do something. We wanted to do this at the grass-roots level. We wanted to have this team. We wanted it to have its own home and its fan club.

"We wanted to do something to help rebuild the soccer culture in our community."

There have been a number of attempts to rekindle the spark of the Roughnecks in Tulsa.

In the early 2000s there was talk of building a soccer-specific stadium in hopes of luring an MLS franchise to Tulsa, something that was met with plenty of optimism from MLS officials. However, a number of Tulsa officials weren't as enthusiastic and the idea died a slow death.

There have been other attempts to put Tulsa back in the major-league soccer business.

But most faded from a lack of finances, interest or facilities.

The Roughnecks were a huge success in Tulsa, drawing large crowds to Skelly Stadium and building a solid fan base in northeastern Oklahoma. The Roughnecks peaked in 1980, drawing 19,787 fans per game (and a team-record 30,822 for a 1980 game with the New York Cosmos).

However, as the NASL started to fade in the mid-1980s, so did the Roughnecks.

There are still many in the soccer community who believe the league, not the Roughnecks, was the failure.

Whatever the reason, the Roughnecks were gone and there has been a constant murmur among loyal soccer fans to get a major league version of the sport back to Tulsa.

It is a far different world for big-league soccer in the United States these days.

The MLS is about stadiums built specifically for soccer. Forget Arrowhead Stadium. Sporting Kansas City now plays in 18,467-seat Sporting Park in Kansas City, Kan.

The Los Angeles Galaxy doesn't play at the Rose Bowl. It plays at the 27,000-seat Home Depot Center.

Chapman Stadium, TU's football stadium, was the Roughnecks' old home. The MLS wants stadiums built for soccer and it is an idea that is working.

There were plenty of skeptics in Tulsa and so the idea was dropped in hopes of rallying support in the push to build a new arena.

The two new sports/entertainment venues built in Tulsa in recent years have proven to be huge successes. One has to wonder if a soccer-specific stadium would have been another piece in the downtown boom sparked by the BOK Center and ONEOK Field.

Tulsa, considered a prime candidate for MLS expansion at one time, has been off the national radar of the MLS.

But the success of the Roughnecks has not been forgotten among soccer fans around the country. Or here in Tulsa.

[sauerkraut]

We can have the Thunder, but they need to be supported by the whole state, The OKC market is not large enough. Everyone has to get involved into the act.