Isn't it time..

[Conan71]

H mentioned it before in another post. This forum is not very representative of the many classes, education and income in the city. We do what used to be called some serious "cross culturalization" around here eg. we're smart and experienced, logical, well employed and consistent...isn't everyone? Let them eat cake I say!

The reality is that in exchange for a slow moving, sediment filled, often nasty little pond whose dam leaks and has been noted by engineers in development meetings as a flawed design that we wouldn't build today because it has terrible undertow, we get sand covered with water, boats that can't operate (including TU rowing club most of the time) and deaths by drowning as a yearly occurrence. That's alright its their fault for being dumb eh? Didn't read the sign? You die and decrease the excess population. Save a friend? What you got a death wish? Driving without a helmet, seat belt, or cars with no airbags? Darwinism will get you! Just don't mess with my pretty little pond.

I supported the last river plan that would have re-created some natural rhythms of the river. That doesn't mean I want the river to revert to an un-improved state. We tear down buildings and bridges as dangerous and obsolete that aren't as useless as this dam.  I was following "the rescue" this morning and they noted that rescue boats were en route to the area....and that was an hour after the original 911 call. What, you can't keep a rescue boat on or near the only population accessible part of the river surrounded by paths, fishermen and swimmers (well they should have read the sign).

My point is this: If we aren't going to modernize the dam, truly regulate it, secure it and afford the same chance of rescue as folks have at other attractive nuisances like Brady, Turkey Mtn etc. then for heavens sake tear the thing down and wait til we can afford to do so. Actually have town hall meetings to ask the population whether, when faced with facts, they really want to keep taxes allocated to this post card pond. You might be surprised. It might just wake up some people as to how really stupid it is to keep acting like there really is something unique and important in paying for a 35 year old dream that never really materialized. Maybe they'll even decide to fix it.

TU relocated the women's NCAA team to the navigation channel in Catoosa 7-8 years ago.  The low water dam isn't the most limiting factor for the Tulsa Rowing Club other than when the gates are broken at the LWD and the Corps isn't releasing from upstream.  Even in low flow conditions, there's enough water to row around 5am to 6am most mornings.

I'm quite familiar with the term "drowning machine" being applied to the LWD at Zink Lake.  Certainly there are better designs and at some point there will be improvements to the dam.  However, there is no such thing as a "safe" dam when it's got high quantities of water going through or over it. Please show me an example of a dam in this area which is NOT a drowning machine when there is water spilling over at a high rate or going through the flood gates.

Your notion that it's some sort of cultural snobbery on my part that keeps me from showing a whole lot of empathy for this incident and others before who clearly ignored any shred of common sense is laughable.  If this young man was an outdoorsman, he, even more than myself should have grown up with a serious respect for fast rushing water and why you don't do these sorts of things around dams when there is a release over or through the dam.  I see several problems with what happened which defy many rules of safety: hand-fishing after dark, hand fishing adjacent to a dam at a high flow rate, entering rushing water with no life preservers, and I'd be curious to know if alcohol played a part in this tragedy.

I don't see the point in tearing down something because a small percentage of the population doesn't appreciate the inherent dangers regardless of the configuration of the dam.  As CF points out, it's like tearing out the BA or I-44 because several times a year people ignore the obvious danger and even hop fences and barriers to attempt a highway crossing only to be killed.  By your logic, we should have crossing guards and flashing "idiot pedestrian may jump in front of your car" signs on the highways.

[swake]

TU relocated the women's NCAA team to the navigation channel in Catoosa 7-8 years ago.  The low water dam isn't the most limiting factor for the Tulsa Rowing Club other than when the gates are broken at the LWD and the Corps isn't releasing from upstream.  Even in low flow conditions, there's enough water to row around 5am to 6am most mornings.

I'm quite familiar with the term "drowning machine" being applied to the LWD at Zink Lake.  Certainly there are better designs and at some point there will be improvements to the dam.  However, there is no such thing as a "safe" dam when it's got high quantities of water going through or over it. Please show me an example of a dam in this area which is NOT a drowning machine when there is water spilling over at a high rate or going through the flood gates.

Your notion that it's some sort of cultural snobbery on my part that keeps me from showing a whole lot of empathy for this incident and others before who clearly ignored any shred of common sense is laughable.  If this young man was an outdoorsman, he, even more than myself should have grown up with a serious respect for fast rushing water and why you don't do these sorts of things around dams when there is a release over or through the dam.  I see several problems with what happened which defy many rules of safety: hand-fishing after dark, hand fishing adjacent to a dam at a high flow rate, entering rushing water with no life preservers, and I'd be curious to know if alcohol played a part in this tragedy.

I don't see the point in tearing down something because a small percentage of the population doesn't appreciate the inherent dangers regardless of the configuration of the dam.  As CF points out, it's like tearing out the BA or I-44 because several times a year people ignore the obvious danger and even hop fences and barriers to attempt a highway crossing only to be killed.  By your logic, we should have crossing guards and flashing "idiot pedestrian may jump in front of your car" signs on the highways.

It's not the Dam's fault that Darwin has a way of catching up with a certain part of the population.

[AquaMan]

TU relocated the women's NCAA team to the navigation channel in Catoosa 7-8 years ago.  The low water dam isn't the most limiting factor for the Tulsa Rowing Club other than when the gates are broken at the LWD and the Corps isn't releasing from upstream.  Even in low flow conditions, there's enough water to row around 5am to 6am most mornings.

I kayak on Zink lake. If I can't float a 9 ft kayak on there with one person I doubt many shells are on there. I know at 5 am there is more water but my job has me cross the 23rd street bridge each weekday morning at 5:30am. Rare to see any on the lake in recent months. They aren't there in the evening when I run either.

I'm quite familiar with the term "drowning machine" being applied to the LWD at Zink Lake.  Certainly there are better designs and at some point there will be improvements to the dam.  However, there is no such thing as a "safe" dam when it's got high quantities of water going through or over it. Please show me an example of a dam in this area which is NOT a drowning machine when there is water spilling over at a high rate or going through the flood gates.

Really? There is only one and people drown there even when water is not high. The other one was blown up because as a hydraulic engineer informed me, it was a poor design as well. They just didn't tolerate losing their teenagers upstream. The dams proposed in the last two issues were safer than this one. But you're dwelling on single points instead of seeing the whole picture. Without some enforcement of existing rules, without maintenance, without repairs and without rescue effectiveness the whole thing is about as safe as the bridge they're tearing down and replacing upstream.  At what point are there going to be improvements? The last I read it may be 10-12 years. Its not part of either the county or city vote coming up.

Your notion that it's some sort of cultural snobbery on my part that keeps me from showing a whole lot of empathy for this incident and others before who clearly ignored any shred of common sense is laughable.  If this young man was an outdoorsman, he, even more than myself should have grown up with a serious respect for fast rushing water and why you don't do these sorts of things around dams when there is a release over or through the dam.  I see several problems with what happened which defy many rules of safety: hand-fishing after dark, hand fishing adjacent to a dam at a high flow rate, entering rushing water with no life preservers, and I'd be curious to know if alcohol played a part in this tragedy.

You're laughing betrays you. I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about. Nor do I think you're snobby or without empathy. I do think you're like a lot of people in Tulsa who are doing pretty well but are compassion damaged, culturally separated from others less educated and privileged and single visioned. It doesn't bother you that a rowing craft plies the water in the dark with no life jackets and no fore/aft lighting but a noodler at 5am is not behaving safely. Drinking at 5 am is pure conjecture on your part. Obviously the young men didn't respect the river. They paid for it. The dam's condition, the lakes condition and the failure to adequately fund enforcement and rescue efforts is indefensible.

I don't see the point in tearing down something because a small percentage of the population doesn't appreciate the inherent dangers regardless of the configuration of the dam.  As CF points out, it's like tearing out the BA or I-44 because several times a year people ignore the obvious danger and even hop fences and barriers to attempt a highway crossing only to be killed.  By your logic, we should have crossing guards and flashing "idiot pedestrian may jump in front of your car" signs on the highways.

Actually no its not. Its like not tearing out or replacing BA or I-44 even though they are woefully inadequate for the traffic load, poorly maintained and require longer than average response times for accidents. You would have us still driving on a 2 lane I-44 with signs that say, "just slow down and deal with it".

[AquaMan]

It's not the Dam's fault that Darwin has a way of catching up with a certain part of the population.

Dang, Swake. That's the same post some flat liner used after the story on "newson6". Was that you? Very classless remark.

Here's the rub. Darwin is often misunderstood, even by smart guys. He never said or described that only the smartest, strongest, fastest would survive in the scheme of life. His argument was that it is those species most adaptable to change that survive and even then nature is chaotic in deciding who lives or disappears from the planet. Adaptability and chaos rule. We get to share space on the globe with cockroaches, whom we arguably outrank in brains and brawn.

[Red Arrow]

We get to share space on the globe with cockroaches, whom we arguably outrank in brains and brawn.

I'm not so sure about the brains.

[swake]

Dang, Swake. That's the same post some flat liner used after the story on "newson6". Was that you? Very classless remark.

Here's the rub. Darwin is often misunderstood, even by smart guys. He never said or described that only the smartest, strongest, fastest would survive in the scheme of life. His argument was that it is those species most adaptable to change that survive and even then nature is chaotic in deciding who lives or disappears from the planet. Adaptability and chaos rule. We get to share space on the globe with cockroaches, whom we arguably outrank in brains and brawn.

Your personal animus against RPA is coloring you thought here.

[Conan71]

You're laughing betrays you. I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about. Nor do I think you're snobby or without empathy. I do think you're like a lot of people in Tulsa who are doing pretty well but are compassion damaged, culturally separated from others less educated and privileged and single visioned. It doesn't bother you that a rowing craft plies the water in the dark with no life jackets and no fore/aft lighting but a noodler at 5am is not behaving safely. Drinking at 5 am is pure conjecture on your part. Obviously the young men didn't respect the river. They paid for it. The dam's condition, the lakes condition and the failure to adequately fund enforcement and rescue efforts is indefensible.

I, like every other member of TRC, underwent training and there were different rules for rowing after sundown or before sun-up in relation to keeping a safe distance from the dam. As well, you do NOT row without blinking marker lights on your shell.  There are also long-established rules on how close to the dam and who may even get on the water in a shell and who may and may not row solo.  in over 30 years of rowing on Zink Lake, there have been a couple of shells manage to go over the dam, but the rowing club has never lost a rower.  A rowing shell is, in itself, a flotation device. Granted, it's no substitute for wearing a personal flotation device but apparently, it's been a long-standing assumption that if someone comes out of a shell they will be conscious and able to get to shore.  There's also the difference that apparently one of the guys wandered into the "fountain" which is far different than turning a rowing craft around several hundred yards from the dam.  There's also conflicting information that these guys went out at 11:30, 3:30, or 5am.  There seems little dispute that 911 was summoned 5-5:30.

[guido911]

If destroying that dam meant the "river" would be something all of Tulsa could enjoy, rather than that lake, then let the blasting begin!!!

[TheArtist]

Growing grass and mowing my lawn is not a natural thing either. I'm considering dropping that activity too.

Read the cautions that came with my new lawnmower, one was... "Do not use to cut hair."
I am not kidding, it actually said that.

[AquaMan]

Your personal animus against RPA is coloring you thought here.

Nonsense. There is one person there who lied and deceived others eventually costing me dearly. It didn't keep me from supporting the last two river development issues nor has it kept me from speaking to that person when we cross paths.

I give them credit when its due and criticism when its deserved. Authorities in general suck and don't earn their keep as downtown supporters found out.

Address the issues I've raised if you can. No one denies the condition of the lake and the dam. Its not entirely the RPA's fault that funding isn't adequate. Yes, they still deceive the public, the press and their donors, but its the city that needs to decide just how much river they want. So far not much.

[guido911]

Must...resist..urge...Okay, I cannot. AM is right. Also, I cannot stand looking at a damned sand bar where, I thought, the Arkansas "river" is supposed to be. It looks like crap down this way.

[AquaMan]

I, like every other member of TRC, underwent training and there were different rules for rowing after sundown or before sun-up in relation to keeping a safe distance from the dam. As well, you do NOT row without blinking marker lights on your shell.  There are also long-established rules on how close to the dam and who may even get on the water in a shell and who may and may not row solo.  in over 30 years of rowing on Zink Lake, there have been a couple of shells manage to go over the dam, but the rowing club has never lost a rower.  A rowing shell is, in itself, a flotation device. Granted, it's no substitute for wearing a personal flotation device but apparently, it's been a long-standing assumption that if someone comes out of a shell they will be conscious and able to get to shore.  There's also the difference that apparently one of the guys wandered into the "fountain" which is far different than turning a rowing craft around several hundred yards from the dam.  There's also conflicting information that these guys went out at 11:30, 3:30, or 5am.  There seems little dispute that 911 was summoned 5-5:30.

Not all TRC members follow the rules then. Just like the countless fishermen and swimmers who break the rules daily around the lake. I've seen them out there without lights in the dark am. People tend to think the signs are not important when they see so many others ignoring them. Human nature. BTW, my kayak floats too but I wear a life vest just in case. I don't make assumptions as to my condition should I roll over.

My points have little to do with these guys other than to feel profound heartache over life lost at such a young age and anger at those who would call them names like idiots or Darwin candidates. You are looking at the symptoms not the disease. Consider this lake as a bridge. One whose design and construction is suspect, that occasionally drops a car through its roadbase in spite of the fact that signs warn of a hole in the bridge in the right lane ahead. A bridge that creaks when you drive over it and has been judged to be structurally deficient...but the state doesn't close. Would you drive over it?  Think the Hendrix, Ok bridge over the Red River. Most of us do because we have a faith in our government that its still safe to do so. As long as we hold on to that blind faith instead of holding the state accountable we will get nothing better.

Do you think we should just let the structure and the lake continue to deteriorate like the out of state owners did with their buildings downtown because we don't want to spend the money? Put up more signs instead? I don't. Fix it or tear it down.

[AquaMan]

Must...resist..urge...Okay, I cannot. AM is right. Also, I cannot stand looking at a damned sand bar where, I thought, the Arkansas "river" is supposed to be. It looks like crap down this way.

Well, you know...even a blind hog finds an acorn occasionally. 

[AquaMan]

You know, I've made too big a deal out of this already. I don't expect that anyone will agree with me that it needs to go. That would be a huge event that most politicians wouldn't want to touch. I would rather see it improved or fixed. Mostly I just wanted to make a stab at saying what others may be afraid to say and to stimulate some conversation about the irony of complaining about bad roads, bad bridges and bad government while a good example stares at us each day. We can do better.

[Townsend]

That would be a huge event that most politicians wouldn't want to touch.

My original point.

The more effective battle would be for improvement.  Of course I say that with little hope that it will happen any time soon.