Is it Illegal to be in a bar and drinking with an expired Drivers License?

[tulsacan]

Since someone mentioned that ABLE considers an Expired Drivers License invalid, I'm trying to understand where that is written because that is not how I interpret what they say...

4. "Proof of age" means a driver license or a card issued for identification only
pursuant to Section 6-105 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma Statutes, or other generally
accepted means of identification that describes the individuals as twenty-one (21) years
of age or older and contains a photograph or other likeness of the individual and appears
on its face to be valid.

So it says a drivers license or ID card.... OR other generally accepted means of ID that contains age and a photo and APPEARS on its face to be valid. 
   
Everything about that paragraph to me indicates an Expired drivers license should be adequate to prove you are 21.  Even if an expired drivers license is no longer considered a drivers license it fully meets the requirements under the OR section, it contains the age and a photo and because it was once issued by the state, unless it was altered it can generally be assumed that the age did not change as any reasonable person would agree with... therefore on its "face" it "appears" to be a valid proof of age.  It doesn't say anywhere anything about expiration dates or anything else, and the very document I pulled that off is titled youth prevention to alcohol which I believe is meant to be the true spirit of the laws by keeping alcohol from minors and not splitting hairs over how that age is proven....


At any rate I believe if I were to ever get a ticket for some of the issues brought up in this thread and was not shown clearer statutes that I actually violated I would try to exercise my right to a jury trial.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Since someone mentioned that ABLE considers an Expired Drivers License invalid, I'm trying to understand where that is written because that is not how I interpret what they say...

4. "Proof of age" means a driver license or a card issued for identification only
pursuant to Section 6-105 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma Statutes, or other generally
accepted means of identification that describes the individuals as twenty-one (21) years
of age or older and contains a photograph or other likeness of the individual and appears
on its face to be valid.

So it says a drivers license or ID card.... OR other generally accepted means of ID that contains age and a photo and APPEARS on its face to be valid.  
 
Everything about that paragraph to me indicates an Expired drivers license should be adequate to prove you are 21.  Even if an expired drivers license is no longer considered a drivers license it fully meets the requirements under the OR section, it contains the age and a photo and because it was once issued by the state, unless it was altered it can generally be assumed that the age did not change as any reasonable person would agree with... therefore on its "face" it "appears" to be a valid proof of age.  It doesn't say anywhere anything about expiration dates or anything else, and the very document I pulled that off is titled youth prevention to alcohol which I believe is meant to be the true spirit of the laws by keeping alcohol from minors and not splitting hairs over how that age is proven....


At any rate I believe if I were to ever get a ticket for some of the issues brought up in this thread and was not shown clearer statutes that I actually violated I would try to exercise my right to a jury trial.

And when you do so, be prepared for the judge to interpret the law, and then open your wallet and say "Take what's fair your honor."  

[tulsacan]

He can interpret all he wants... but unless I'm mistaken, its the jury of my peers that decides if I'm willfully guilty or not and ultimately decides if I have to pay anything by saying guilty or not guilty.

Or am I mistaken?

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Yes, in civil and criminal court a jury can decide if you are guilty or not guilty, but the judge will act on recommendations by the jury, or if their are applicable fines as set by state statute, the judge has the latitude to increase or decrease those amounts, as well as increase jail time. Also, in a criminal case, the judge can decide if sentences if there is more than one, be served concurrently (all at the same time) or consecutively (serve one, then the next, etc.). In a civil case, say arguing an expired ID or drivers license, I'd be willing to bet that there is no jury trial, and the judge will rule that if the drivers license or ID is expired, it is invalid for it's intended purpose and therefore invalid to be used.

[Vashta Nerada]

Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
 Title 37. Intoxicating Liquors
   Chapter 2 - Low-Point Beer
     Minors
       Section 241 - Twenty-One (21) Years of Age Requirement
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=78039


A. It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, barter, or give to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age any low-point beer, as defined in Section 163.2 of this title.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person who holds a license to sell and dispense low-point beer for consumption on the premises, or any agent, servant, or employee of said license holder, to permit any person under twenty-one (21) years of age to be admitted to or remain in a separate or enclosed bar area of the licensed premises, which has as its main purpose the selling or serving of low-point beer for consumption on the premises. The provisions of this section shall not prohibit persons under twenty-one (21) years of age from being admitted to an area which has as its main purpose some objective other than the sale or serving of low-point beer, in which sales or serving of said beverages are incidental to the main purpose, as long as persons under twenty-one (21) years of age are not sold or served said beverages; however, the incidental service of food in the bar area shall not exempt a licensee, agent, servant, or employee from the provisions of this section.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person who holds a license to sell and dispense low-point beer, for consumption on the premises, or any agent, servant or employee of said license holder to permit any person under twenty-one (21) years of age to consume any low-point beer on the licensed premises.

D. Any person violating the provisions of subsection A, B or C of this section shall upon conviction be guilty of a misdemeanor for a first violation and shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or imprisoned in the county jail for not more than one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Any person convicted of a second violation within one (1) year of the first violation shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not more than Two Thousand Five Hundred Dollars ($2,500.00), or imprisoned in the county jail for not more than one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Any person convicted of a third violation within one (1) year of the first violation shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00), or by imprisonment in the custody of the Department of Corrections for not more than five (5) years, or by both such fine and imprisonment. The filing of a supplemental information shall be subject to the discretion of the district attorney. One-half (1/2) of any fine collected shall be deposited in the Prevention of Youth Access to Alcohol Revolving Fund established by Section 608 of this title.

E. That the person demanded, was shown, and reasonably relied upon proof of age shall be a rebuttable presumption to any action brought pursuant to this section. A person cited for violating this section shall be deemed to have reasonably relied upon proof of age, and such person shall not be found guilty of such violation if:

1. The individual who purchased or received the low-point beer presented what a reasonable person would have believed was a driver license or other government-issued photo identification purporting to establish that the individual was twenty-one (21) years of age or older; or
2. The person cited for the violation confirmed the validity of the driver license or other government-issued photo identification presented by the individual by performing a transaction scan by means of a transaction scan device.

Provided, that this defense shall not relieve from liability any person cited for a violation of this section if such person failed to exercise reasonable diligence to determine whether the physical description and picture on the driver license or other government-issued photo identification was that of the individual who presented it. The availability of the defense described in this subsection does not affect the availability of any other defense under any other provision of law.

F. Upon violation of any of the provisions of this section by any agent, servant, or employee, the law enforcement agency shall notify the owner of the premises of the violation, the Oklahoma Tax Commission, and the district court clerk of the county in which the premises are located. For purposes of this subsection, notification to the owner of the premises shall be deemed given if the law enforcement agency mails, by mail with delivery confirmation, the notification to the address which is on file with the Oklahoma Tax Commission of the owner of the location at which the violation occurred and the law enforcement agency received delivery confirmation from the United States Postal Service.

G. Cities and towns may enact and municipal police officers may enforce ordinances prohibiting and penalizing conduct under the provisions of this section, but the provisions of the municipal ordinances shall be the same as provided for in this section, and the penalty provisions under such ordinances shall not be more stringent than those of this section and shall be limited to the provisions of Section 14-111 of Title 11 of the Oklahoma Statutes.


Short answer to the question :  No.
As for Smoot, he sucks from the same DPS teet as Trooper Martin, so

[sgrizzle]

He can interpret all he wants... but unless I'm mistaken, its the jury of my peers that decides if I'm willfully guilty or not and ultimately decides if I have to pay anything by saying guilty or not guilty.

Or am I mistaken?

While you're waiting on a jury trial, your bar is out of business because ABLE shut it down 3 months ago.

[tulsacan]

THANK YOU Vashta Nerada! I tried to find that and had no luck! And like you said, I interpret that to mean No as well. According to that as well, a bartender just has to reasonably be sure that a person is 21... any sane reasonable person would dare say that even though a ID might be expired it doesn't mean someone suddenly started getting younger!

[tulsacan]

I just want to say thank you again one more time... I love how I can ask police and call the police department and other city offices and ask where I can actually find laws and I get, I don't knows, try calling, blah blah blah. 

[tulsacan]

While you're waiting on a jury trial, your bar is out of business because ABLE shut it down 3 months ago.

I might be more concerned about that if I actually owned a bar...

[dbacksfan 2.0]

2. The person cited for the violation confirmed the validity of the driver license or other government-issued photo identification presented by the individual by performing a transaction scan by means of a transaction scan device.

In most every state, they will not recognize an expired drivers license or state ID. If it is expired, it is not valid, even if the description and the photo match the person holding it or assigned to it, if it is expired it does not matter, it's not valid/legal to use.

Tell you what, let your license/ID expire, or the tag on your car expire, and you can explain until you are blue in the face and pass out that it's who you are, it won't matter. It's expired, it is no longer valid, even if they swipe the magnetic strip on the back for a vericheck/very-id, if it is expired it's not valid. If it is not valid by state or federal law, you might as well use it as a coaster, or to level the table with a short leg.

A business that sells alcoholic beverages reserves the right to check that your ID is valid, mainly to protect themselves as they should to preserve there business and ABLE licenses, not only them but banks have the same right, as does any place that may ask for your ID for any transaction for using a check/credit/debit transaction, car rental, hotel room, tool rental at Lowes/Home Depot, hell even an employer wants a valid ID.......

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Simple answer, keep your DL/ID, car info, insurance, tag, registration, current. You have ample time to take care of them regardless which state in the US that you live in.

[Cats Cats Cats]

I just want to say thank you again one more time... I love how I can ask police and call the police department and other city offices and ask where I can actually find laws and I get, I don't knows, try calling, blah blah blah. 

You just have to call ABLE.

[patric]

In most every state, they will not recognize an expired drivers license or state ID. If it is expired, it is not valid, even if the description and the photo match the person holding it or assigned to it, if it is expired it does not matter, it's not valid/legal to use.

....as a drivers license.  You are correct.


But if you "presented what a reasonable person would have believed was a driver license or other government-issued photo identification purporting to establish that the individual was twenty-one (21) years of age or older"  in a bar, all it needs to do is satisfy the bartender that you are 21, according to the law.

For the purpose of ID in a bar, the law doesnt care if it's expired or not. 
You dont need a drivers license to be in a bar, and it is not a crime to walk the streets without your paperz.

If a bar is requiring an ID be current, or that you fit a dress code, that is entirely the bar's choice.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

For the purpose of ID in a bar, the law doesnt care if it's expired or not.  

Tell that to Smoot. It cost me $500.00 in 1990 for someone in the bar where I worked that had an expired ID.

Expired does not equal valid, even if the description fits perfectly.

[carltonplace]

Care to share the bar name? This sounds like a classic Kenneth move.