Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes, I don't think there is any real discussion to using the Union Depot.  Personally I would not like to use it for it is now too disconnected from any decent urban fabric.  First impression of Tulsa leaving the depot would be a large parking garage and the back alley like area of a bunch of other buildings and parking garages.  Pedestrian connectivity to other parts of downtown is important.  But there is talk about doing a train station downtown. 

This would be good place for a shuttle stop like we have discussed in another thread... Downtown, Cherry Street, Union Station.

[TheArtist]

I agree the Williams/City Hall complex really isolates the old train depot.  However, I don't think a proposal to spend a lot of money to build a brand new train station will go over very well when we have an underutilized building with "Depot" in its name sitting on the tracks that could be put back in service for a much smaller investment.  It also has ample parking right outside its front door.  Rail service between Tulsa and OKC may or may not work out long-term - keeping our investment on a building to a minimum would be a much easier sale to voters.

That is a frustrating prospect that if you propose a new station, the first likely reaction by most might be "Why spend money on a new one when the old one could do?"  And that right there would create a negative bias on any plan to fund a new station.  However if there were a longer range plan that showed a new station that was perhaps small, but had room to grow, that was also architecturally interesting, and part of a larger more connected plan showing a vision of what was around it, aka lots of pedestrian friendly stuff, well then I think it might have a chance.  Also if it was a "dual use" station, which is actually what is proposed.  In the proposal I saw it was called a Multi Modal station, that could be used by the new downtown circulator and then later possibly light rail.

How about a Multi Modal station for the new Downtown Circulator, set up so that it can also be used for light rail in the future, that is also a city welcoming/information center and throw in a Tulsa Art Deco Museum component to give people a little taste of our history while showcasing some incredible Art Deco art and artifacts? 

[swake]

Yes, I don't think there is any real discussion to using the Union Depot.  Personally I would not like to use it for it is now too disconnected from any decent urban fabric.  First impression of Tulsa leaving the depot would be a large parking garage and the back alley like area of a bunch of other buildings and parking garages.  Pedestrian connectivity to other parts of downtown is important.  But there is talk about doing a train station downtown. 

Union Depot is in a perfect location. From the building walking it's one block down the bridge to the Brady District or one block down Cincinnati to the CBD, two blocks down 1st to Blue Dome District or two blocks down the bridge to Guthrie Green. It's just four blocks from Oneok and The Brady Theater and only five blocks from The BOK Center and The Cain's. Where exactly downtown would be a better location?

[SXSW]

That is a frustrating prospect that if you propose a new station, the first likely reaction by most might be "Why spend money on a new one when the old one could do?"  And that right there would create a negative bias on any plan to fund a new station.  However if there were a longer range plan that showed a new station that was perhaps small, but had room to grow, that was also architecturally interesting, and part of a larger more connected plan showing a vision of what was around it, aka lots of pedestrian friendly stuff, well then I think it might have a chance.  Also if it was a "dual use" station, which is actually what is proposed.  In the proposal I saw it was called a Multi Modal station, that could be used by the new downtown circulator and then later possibly light rail.

How about a Multi Modal station for the new Downtown Circulator, set up so that it can also be used for light rail in the future, that is also a city welcoming/information center and throw in a Tulsa Art Deco Museum component to give people a little taste of our history while showcasing some incredible Art Deco art and artifacts?  

If the circulator ran down Cincinnati/Detroit on a couplet as some have proposed it would be right next to Union Depot.  There could actually be some cool synergy between Union Depot and the OK Pop Museum directly across the tracks, hopefully that's part of the design as they move forward on the museum.  I agree 1st St right at Union Depot is pretty terrible for a pedestrian, at least the streetscape is pretty nice through parts of there.  It would be great to have the buses there as well, is there room?

[TheArtist]

Union Depot is in a perfect location. From the building walking it's one block down the bridge to the Brady District or one block down Cincinnati to the CBD, two blocks down 1st to Blue Dome District or two blocks down the bridge to Guthrie Green. It's just four blocks from Oneok and The Brady Theater and only five blocks from The BOK Center and The Cain's. Where exactly downtown would be a better location?

Possibly where the tracks cross Detroit, or Elgin or Frankfort. Or perhaps better yet on Boulder so the BRT could connect there as well.

Just because something is walking distance, doesn't mean it's a good walk that people will want to make.  I would rather walk 2 blocks along a great, pedestrian lively street, versus 1 block past a blank wall or parking garage. Most of the stations I have been to in other cities immediately drop you off in a pedestrian friendly area. Also, I don't see that the old Union Depot can be Multi-Modal with the busses.

[patric]

WATCO Companies L.L.C. of Pittsburg, Kansas, issued a Request for Proposal to begin the process of securing a private rail carrier to provide passenger service for an initial period of 10 years between downtown Tulsa and the newly reconfigured Santa Fe Hub in Oklahoma City.
http://www.normantranscript.com/news/passenger-rail-will-return-connecting-tulsa-to-okc/article_c99c53b2-763d-11e8-b116-ab1352191997.html

[patric]

Here is a proposed site for a NEW TRAIN STATION downtown.

https://goo.gl/maps/4Djbf32KGt32

Funny that Google Street View drives on sidewalks now (and I thought I was the only one).

[swake]

WATCO Companies L.L.C. of Pittsburg, Kansas, issued a Request for Proposal to begin the process of securing a private rail carrier to provide passenger service for an initial period of 10 years between downtown Tulsa and the newly reconfigured Santa Fe Hub in Oklahoma City.
http://www.normantranscript.com/news/passenger-rail-will-return-connecting-tulsa-to-okc/article_c99c53b2-763d-11e8-b116-ab1352191997.html

Sounds great, but I don't believe it will ever happen.

[SXSW]

It's up to GT Bynum and the city council to push for this service or it won't happen.  And it needs to serve both downtowns to work.  And a renovated Union Depot absolutely should be Tulsa's downtown station it would be an amazing attraction.

From the TW:

Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum, who had not yet taken office during the initial discussion to establish a train station in downtown, indicated in a statement that he is receptive to the idea.

"In the 21st Century, both cities — and our state — will benefit from improved connectivity between Tulsa and Oklahoma City," Bynum said. "I continue to support the concept of passenger rail service as one strategy in improving that connectivity, and am eager to see what proposals Watco receives in response to this request."

[AdamsHall]

It's up to GT Bynum and the city council to push for this service or it won't happen.  And it needs to serve both downtowns to work.  And a renovated Union Depot absolutely should be Tulsa's downtown station it would be an amazing attraction.

Agreed.  I would love for Union Depot station to be utilized.  

When this Tulsa to OKC train service discussion started, Uber was not quite (or at best was newly) a regular thing in OK.  Further, both cities have had significant redevelopment of their downtown areas.  Train service might work quite well now for certain business travelers.

[TheArtist]

On the way to Dallas this weekend I was just thinking how great it would be to be taking the train instead.  Even if it takes longer, I could have used the time to relax and do some work on my computer.  By the way, the more I go to Dallas the more I think its an awful city lol.  We always go to the "core" to buy at Market for the store and then in the area to eat out, stay for a few days, etc. but even in their core with all the density they have, you can't really walk from place to place in most areas and you never see anyone walking or biking except in just small parts of their Uptown.  It's hideous and I am so glad our city core is slowly bending the curve the other direction to where we can have more density but it feel more alive and yet at the same time feel more intimate, beautiful, and comfortable. 

[Dspike]

As an eternal optimist for an alternative transit option between Tulsa and OKC, I don't see much hope in this new development. Nothing in the article discussed the track condition. Will the trains still be averaging around 40 mph? Will the trip still be almost 3 hours? Other than for novelty, how much regular ridership do they project with a trip that long? Will it still cost $50M to bring train speeds up to around 60 mph?

The same problems the delayed and then defeated the last effort have not been addressed. It is why I am more optimistic about luxury bus service because it doesn't need $50M in infrastructure improvement to offer comfy seats, wifi, electrical outlets, and downtown-to-downtown service.

But I hope I'm wrong this time and someone has found the magic pot of money to upgrade the track and make train service comparable to driving times. Without that, I cannot see passenger rail succeeding on a route people are used to driving both ways in the same day.

[heironymouspasparagus]

On the way to Dallas this weekend I was just thinking how great it would be to be taking the train instead.  Even if it takes longer, I could have used the time to relax and do some work on my computer.  By the way, the more I go to Dallas the more I think its an awful city lol.  We always go to the "core" to buy at Market for the store and then in the area to eat out, stay for a few days, etc. but even in their core with all the density they have, you can't really walk from place to place in most areas and you never see anyone walking or biking except in just small parts of their Uptown.  It's hideous and I am so glad our city core is slowly bending the curve the other direction to where we can have more density but it feel more alive and yet at the same time feel more intimate, beautiful, and comfortable. 

Go to OKC and hop the train...yeah, takes longer, but it is a great ride!   We have done that close to a dozen times and it never fails to be enjoyable.  Rent a car at Ft Worth or get on the local train loop if you are going to be just in downtown Dallas.  Further west out of Dallas, toward Ft Worth, the better it is...   Stockyards is kinda fun, and there is a huge Christmas shop there called Decorator's Warehouse.  It is a Christmas store in the same way Bass Pro Shops is a bait shop.  They have 17 ft tall Nutcrackers!  And all the sizes in between.


And yeah, Dallas kinda sucks - but they have a Pappadeaux there!  Couple of them...


Oh, and you can also drive by Gas Monkey shop, Misfit Garage, and Sue's place.  All within about a mile of each other.  Not real impressive buildings, but hey, they are celebrities!!

[heironymouspasparagus]

As an eternal optimist for an alternative transit option between Tulsa and OKC, I don't see much hope in this new development. Nothing in the article discussed the track condition. Will the trains still be averaging around 40 mph? Will the trip still be almost 3 hours? Other than for novelty, how much regular ridership do they project with a trip that long? Will it still cost $50M to bring train speeds up to around 60 mph?

The same problems the delayed and then defeated the last effort have not been addressed. It is why I am more optimistic about luxury bus service because it doesn't need $50M in infrastructure improvement to offer comfy seats, wifi, electrical outlets, and downtown-to-downtown service.

But I hope I'm wrong this time and someone has found the magic pot of money to upgrade the track and make train service comparable to driving times. Without that, I cannot see passenger rail succeeding on a route people are used to driving both ways in the same day.

Probably won't happen.  Again.   As for $50 million, well the bus service will have to take the turnpike and they spend way more than that on repair, so it also has some issues.

Comfy seats -  the OKC to Ft Worth train has amazing seats!  Better than 1st class airplane!   And there is so much room between rows, my feet almost can't reach the footrest on the seat in front of me.

[SXSW]

As an eternal optimist for an alternative transit option between Tulsa and OKC, I don't see much hope in this new development. Nothing in the article discussed the track condition. Will the trains still be averaging around 40 mph? Will the trip still be almost 3 hours? Other than for novelty, how much regular ridership do they project with a trip that long? Will it still cost $50M to bring train speeds up to around 60 mph?

The same problems the delayed and then defeated the last effort have not been addressed. It is why I am more optimistic about luxury bus service because it doesn't need $50M in infrastructure improvement to offer comfy seats, wifi, electrical outlets, and downtown-to-downtown service.

But I hope I'm wrong this time and someone has found the magic pot of money to upgrade the track and make train service comparable to driving times. Without that, I cannot see passenger rail succeeding on a route people are used to driving both ways in the same day.

I was recently in Japan and they make our transportation infrastructure look like a third world country.  If you are into trains a trip between Osaka and Tokyo on the shinkansen is a must.  If we had a similar train the trip between downtown OKC and downtown Tulsa would be around 30 min.