Oklahoma Opportunity

[Conan71]

Downtown is doing better, but I would not say it is growing fast.  I really hope it begins to take off though for it has a lot of potential and gosh knows I have been sinking a lot of my time, sweat and money into trying to do what paltry little I can, and can use all the growth down there we can muster lol.  The Gathering Place is definitely a bright spot for Tulsa.  We are so fortunate to be getting a park of this size and caliber. Don't know about "Lots of big new developments all over town."  Only decent sized one I know of is the casino expansion/hotel.  We certainly don't have the "cranes in the air" that other cities have.  Things are looking up, and even the national economy is starting to finally give glimmers of real hope.  The things I want for Tulsa will happen.  It's just a matter of when, how much struggle, and regret (for not having done it sooner) will pass before they do. 

"Begins to take off"?

IMO, since 2004, I'd say the investment and growth within downtown has been nothing short of astounding.  Think about all the new hotel projects announced in the past couple of months

I recall driving through the Brady early last year and marveling that there were about seven cranes in the air all at once.  In addition to projects currently underway, there's a slew of completed renovations and new construction now complete with just a few of the highlights:

BOK Center
Mayo Hotel
A-Loft Hotel
Fairfield Inn
One Place
OneOk Field
GreenArch
Tulsa Club
Tribune Lofts

Look at all the old storefronts that have now been repurposed including your shop (I still want to hi-jack the old smoker in your building) and The Vault as well as the entire Blue Dome District which was little more than transient night clubs barely built out to code ten years ago.

I'm forgetting many others, but if that isn't fast growth, I don't know what is.  Especially considering how many projects continued during the economic downturn.  Honestly, downtown is the most vibrant I can remember in the near 50 years I've lived here.  Certainly there's more room for growth, but there's no shortage of projects on the drawing board and in the backs of people's minds that will happen in the next five years.  Ten years from now, we will look back and say: "Holy crap!  Look how dense the area inside the IDL is, when did that happen?"

[Conan71]

Obsession with arguable details is clouding your vision.

Says he who is still arguing.

It was Randi Miller who stood in the river, FYI, not Bill LessFortunate.

[Townsend]

It was Randi Miller who stood in the river,

That went well for her.

[AquaMan]

Says he who is still arguing.

It was Randi Miller who stood in the river, FYI, not Bill LessFortunate.

Use your own advice and watch for accuracy. I personally stood in Bill Lafortune's mayoral office and gazed upon the original photo hanging on the wall of the fortunate one standing in the river with his suit pant legs rolled up and his Johnston-Murphy's in hand. Underneath it was the phrase "The River Development Mayor".  It amused me since his office did absolutely nothing to help me with my river problems at the time.  At least Randi tried.

I am not arguing anything. I made one series of posts out of 5 pages. Said my piece and defended my remarks. You on the other hand are everywhere at all times disputing, discussing, arguing and misremembering.

If Tulsa is the best its been in 50 years, (thanks Obama!) then lets stop now and enjoy it.

[Gaspar]

"Begins to take off"?

IMO, since 2004, I'd say the investment and growth within downtown has been nothing short of astounding.  Think about all the new hotel projects announced in the past couple of months

I recall driving through the Brady early last year and marveling that there were about seven cranes in the air all at once.  In addition to projects currently underway, there's a slew of completed renovations and new construction now complete with just a few of the highlights:

BOK Center
Mayo Hotel
A-Loft Hotel
Fairfield Inn
One Place
OneOk Field
GreenArch
Tulsa Club
Tribune Lofts

Look at all the old storefronts that have now been repurposed including your shop (I still want to hi-jack the old smoker in your building) and The Vault as well as the entire Blue Dome District which was little more than transient night clubs barely built out to code ten years ago.

I'm forgetting many others, but if that isn't fast growth, I don't know what is.  Especially considering how many projects continued during the economic downturn.  Honestly, downtown is the most vibrant I can remember in the near 50 years I've lived here.  Certainly there's more room for growth, but there's no shortage of projects on the drawing board and in the backs of people's minds that will happen in the next five years.  Ten years from now, we will look back and say: "Holy crap!  Look how dense the area inside the IDL is, when did that happen?"

. . . and it's not just downtown.  Tulsa hills is a boom, South Memorial is rocking, Midtown has several new businesses and infill developments, Yale from 41st all the way to 91st has tons of new development, and on and on.  Most of my family and friends are involved in either commercial or residential construction, and after the slump of 2008-2011 that led many construction businesses to screech to a halt or even shut their doors, we have suddenly come roaring back with all kinds of projects, and they are not just concentrated in one area.

I suppose we all see things through our own lenses, but I would find it very hard to drive from downtown to South Tulsa and not see a development boom in our city.

Another thing I have witnessed. . .
My company provides business technology solutions and custom software to mostly distribution, wholesale supply, and manufacturing companies.  From 2008 to 2011 we were primarily involved in helping companies automate processes to avoid adding additional labor force.  We are still doing that nationally, but locally our clients are expanding operations and increasing system user counts by the hundreds. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

And I ask you, what are you doing about the problem? Are you hiring? Are you paying more than minimum wage? Or are you complaining about someone else not doing so?

I hire intermittently for special projects as needed, since I don't have enough business for anyone full time, including myself (there are only a max of 6 of us total, part time now - and that goes up and down with the project intake).  I have stated in the past that I don't believe any job in this country is worth less than $10 an hour, so I never pay anyone less than that.  Some make much more, depending on experience, expertise, and the type of work, etc.  I always have to pay the engineer (other than me) more than the others.  Now, after this last year of learning the history of minimum wage, and how abominably it has been reduced by 30% in the last 45 years, I raised the minimum that I will pay to $14.  And the higher paids were raised proportionally.

We are working hard to become full time, and when that happens, everyone will go up $1 an hour immediately.  Including myself!!  And if full time success is even close to part time - we have good margins in the part time world - then everyone who helps lift this little boat will share in the rewards.  

If I cannot stay ahead of the 1968 minimum wage, then I should NOT be doing whatever that job is.  And that includes the kid I have sweep the floor when doing our occasional manufacturing work....  smallest part of the operation now....

Our corporate goal is to work a good, hard, solid 6 months a year to make our livings - comparable to current 12 month efforts.  If we can scale up the execution, it is a reasonable goal.  6 months a year vacation is the ultimate goal!!

I'm sure you are also paying more than min wage, otherwise I don't think you could get your business to run successfully enough to make the kind of geetis you seem to enjoy!  I suspect the care and feeding of a law firm is a little different from our little group of misfits....


Oh...almost forgot... Yes.  I am complaining about someone - anyone - else not doing so.  They should be ashamed of themselves, especially when you consider that productivity in this country has risen over 100% average - and WAY above that in many more - the fact that someone feels compelled to steal that extra 30% of wage growth from the people making them a success, when they have already benefited to the tune of 100% ++ is just greedy, petty, and shameful.  And wrong.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Federal minimum wage is $7.25.  $24,000 per year equals $12.00 an hour at 2000 hours.  I hope your cipherin' when you are engineering things is more accurate.

Yep, that's what I get for not using a calculator.  Still just barely above the minimum wage of 1968.  Not great.  That's why we went to $14.

And it is amazing that even with that $12 an hour, you could think that people are doing so great - that number means half the people make (a lot) less than that, so that the 1% can make there many, many times more than that. 

One prime national example that we have a large presence of is McDonald's.  Corporate is telling them how to save money and make themselves better off working a part time job at minimum wage.  When the CEO makes almost 600 times as much as his average worker bee.  And it is kind of sad that you don't see something wrong with that....

[Gaspar]

Anyone here want to touch on that old minimum wage ditty again?

No.

Ok, moving along.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Anyone here want to touch on that old minimum wage ditty again?

No.

Ok, moving along.

I'm sure you, along with the entire rest of FoxWorld don't want to...it should be embarassing for them.  Still...it is a reality of life, not just in OK, but nationwide.

[TheArtist]

"Begins to take off"?

IMO, since 2004, I'd say the investment and growth within downtown has been nothing short of astounding.  Think about all the new hotel projects announced in the past couple of months

I recall driving through the Brady early last year and marveling that there were about seven cranes in the air all at once.  In addition to projects currently underway, there's a slew of completed renovations and new construction now complete with just a few of the highlights:

BOK Center
Mayo Hotel
A-Loft Hotel
Fairfield Inn
One Place
OneOk Field
GreenArch
Tulsa Club
Tribune Lofts

Look at all the old storefronts that have now been repurposed including your shop (I still want to hi-jack the old smoker in your building) and The Vault as well as the entire Blue Dome District which was little more than transient night clubs barely built out to code ten years ago.

I'm forgetting many others, but if that isn't fast growth, I don't know what is.  Especially considering how many projects continued during the economic downturn.  Honestly, downtown is the most vibrant I can remember in the near 50 years I've lived here.  Certainly there's more room for growth, but there's no shortage of projects on the drawing board and in the backs of people's minds that will happen in the next five years.  Ten years from now, we will look back and say: "Holy crap!  Look how dense the area inside the IDL is, when did that happen?"

Sorry, missed that bad choice of words, perhaps it was the particular perspective I was coming from.  Downtown is indeed "taking off" relative from where it was. BRAVO!  Maybe I need to stay away from the "City Compilations" thread on Skyscraper Pages forums.  Different cities list and show pictures of the developments currently underway in their cities and I am often blown away by what I see compared to us.  What we have going on, though great and I am excited and happy to have at least this, would be hardly even be considered worth mentioning except as small side notes.  6 new hotels, bravo I will give ya that is good news, but a dime a dozen of the sort going on in other cities as well.  Would like to think we are doing well enough to get at least one high-rise hotel and I think we will see one.  Living, we have a few going in here and there, but nothing compared to so many other competitor cities with multiple high-rise developments going in.  Office towers too, we got one recently, and glad to have it, but would be hesitant to list that on Tulsa's compilation page cause the rest would be aghast at how banal and cheap the construction/design is next to their lists of flashy new glass towers under construction both of office and living.  You still look at our downtown and for the most part the thought is "Wow they must have had some money in the 80's, but what happened after that? They seemed to have died?"  The newish City Hall building and the beautiful BOK center are the spots of exception. Also, as was mentioned by city leaders at a meeting I was in this morning, tax receipts are down in Tulsa and that pays a lot of the bills.    

Again, I think we are doing better and have turned the corner downtown. Just think we can ramp up our potential growth a notch, quality and quantity wise, if we but only make some small changes here and there.  

But change is hard here in Tulsa, even small changes.  Perhaps my tact is wrong?  My thinking has been that if we think everything is going great then there is no incentive to make any changes? Why change? My pointing out weaknesses or what I see "better example wise" that other cities have done, isn't to put Tulsa down but to put enough of a fire under us to try something to potentially ramp up and better what we do have going on.   Am I wrong in that approach?  Perhaps should I instead say hey everything is going great let's do this to make it better? Or are you one of those that don't believe we need to do anything differently? Or if you do think we could make some changes here and there how would you get those changes to happen?



I was invited to and went to the Mayors Breakfast meeting this morning with other retailers.  I was kind of the downtown representative.  I quickly said a little schpeel about how great it would be to have a nice long strip downtown of pedestrian friendly retail, shops, restaurants etc. and how having that type of lively bustling street life would benefit the whole city, (the number of times people have come into my shop after 8 or 9 and said we are the ONLY store open downtown ((the only store in a metro of almost a MILLION people)) "pause for dramatic effect. etc. How important it is in a downtown environment to have pedestrian friendly connectivity and how even one or two "pedestrian unfriendly" developments can hurt that connectivity. How we have zoning for great car oriented development in other parts of the city and pointed out that we do not have any pedestrian/transit friendly zoning in downtown.  Cut to the chase "Might we consider doing something like Denver did and have some carrots, some tax incentives, on one street, perhaps a street where in the future we may like to see some transit, to help encourage businesses along that street to create pedestrian/transit friendly development?"

Must have it a raw nerve or something for one city person immediately interjected that we can't give tax incentives to everyone.  Think he had been hearing a lot of negativity out there about the Macy's deal.  And perhaps my timing was bad cause others also mentioned incentives for this or that so I can see that he was probably worn out on the topic.

Anyway, wasn't mentioning rezoning all of downtown or even one street in downtown, or anything grandiose (though other cities have put Form Based codes over their entire cities lol).  Thought surely they might consider looking at the notion of some guidelines along with some pedestrian/transit friendly tax incentives to encourage developers to follow them, on one little street.  But felt like I had just turned into public enemy number one.  Thank goodness that as we went around the table others from Woodland Hills to Tulsa Hills representatives mentioned too that having a vibrant downtown core would actually help them and that the different points I had made had merit.  So at least I didn't feel too bad.  Mayor didn't say anything when I was speaking but did seem to take more notes with what I had said.  So who knows.  

[Townsend]

 Cut to the chase "Might we consider doing something like Denver did and have some carrots, some tax incentives, on one street, perhaps a street where in the future we may like to see some transit, to help encourage businesses along that street to create pedestrian/transit friendly development?"

Denver's building a train route from the airport to downtown.

[Conan71]

Yep, that's what I get for not using a calculator.  Still just barely above the minimum wage of 1968.  Not great.  That's why we went to $14.

And it is amazing that even with that $12 an hour, you could think that people are doing so great - that number means half the people make (a lot) less than that, so that the 1% can make there many, many times more than that. 

One prime national example that we have a large presence of is McDonald's.  Corporate is telling them how to save money and make themselves better off working a part time job at minimum wage.  When the CEO makes almost 600 times as much as his average worker bee.  And it is kind of sad that you don't see something wrong with that....

Average incomes also include pensioners with paid mortgages and kids just starting out with minimal needs.  There are also people who have simple needs and wants.  If all a fellow wants is a five acre parcel with a double-wide, a bass boat, and a decent pick up truck, he's more than happy making $30K per year.  People who seek better opportunities and who prepare themselves for better opportunities either by improving their education or job skills will eventually earn more, a good deal more.

People who bring no innovation, motivation, or advanced job skills to an employer have no right to demand an arbitrary increase in pay simply because they "deserve" it.  I was brought up that no one deserves anything in the job world- you earn what you are worth.  What you are worth is what you bring to the table that represents an increased value to the employer.  A code welder is worth far more to my employer than a structural welder.  Skills more in line with what we need pays more, it's that simple.

People are paid what they are worth to the employer, you even said that's how you do it yourself based on experience and skill.  There's a huge difference in responsibility, stress, and skill required to operate a multi-billion dollar food giant than there is to sweep floors and ask if: "you want fries with that?".

McDonalds is a lame meme anyhow.  Anyone who stays with them and shows great people skills, a work ethic, and desire to succeed can and do advance to management and they make better income.  McDonald's has also made millionaires out of people who started out as teens who came from nothing and eventually managed to work their way into a franchise or two, or more.  That happens throughout the fast food industry.

Teachers or fast food workers know going in that theirs aren't the best paying jobs and never will be.  If someone wants to make a higher income, they need to aim higher, and go into a business with historically higher wages such as law, medicine, high end welding or machining, engineering, accounting, etc.

If a CEO of a company makes 600 times what the floor sweepers do, he or she must be worth it to the stock holders otherwise, he or she would not earn that.  Their relative salary represents how much value the company owners put on that person.

[Gaspar]

Average incomes also include pensioners with paid mortgages and kids just starting out with minimal needs.  There are also people who have simple needs and wants.  If all a fellow wants is a five acre parcel with a double-wide, a bass boat, and a decent pick up truck, he's more than happy making $30K per year.  People who seek better opportunities and who prepare themselves for better opportunities either by improving their education or job skills will eventually earn more, a good deal more.

People who bring no innovation, motivation, or advanced job skills to an employer have no right to demand an arbitrary increase in pay simply because they "deserve" it.  I was brought up that no one deserves anything in the job world- you earn what you are worth.  What you are worth is what you bring to the table that represents an increased value to the employer.  A code welder is worth far more to my employer than a structural welder.  Skills more in line with what we need pays more, it's that simple.

People are paid what they are worth to the employer, you even said that's how you do it yourself based on experience and skill.  There's a huge difference in responsibility, stress, and skill required to operate a multi-billion dollar food giant than there is to sweep floors and ask if: "you want fries with that?".

McDonalds is a lame meme anyhow.  Anyone who stays with them and shows great people skills, a work ethic, and desire to succeed can and do advance to management and they make better income.  McDonald's has also made millionaires out of people who started out as teens who came from nothing and eventually managed to work their way into a franchise or two, or more.  That happens throughout the fast food industry.

Teachers or fast food workers know going in that theirs aren't the best paying jobs and never will be.  If someone wants to make a higher income, they need to aim higher, and go into a business with historically higher wages such as law, medicine, high end welding or machining, engineering, accounting, etc.

If a CEO of a company makes 600 times what the floor sweepers do, he or she must be worth it to the stock holders otherwise, he or she would not earn that.  Their relative salary represents how much value the company owners put on that person.

Further more, increases in minimum wage do not help unskilled workers.  On the contrary, if I can only afford to spend $400 a week for general office janitorial service, I can afford to hire someone full time to keep the offices tidy.  If someone tells me that I must pay $14 an hr, that blows my budget, so I put up a sign in the break room that says "Your mother does not work here (anymore)" and make a policy that everyone is responsible for their own office trash, windows, and a weekly vacuuming.

Now all of a sudden there are a bunch of unemployed janitors who were supporting their families, perhaps going to school, or supplementing a spouses income.

Not everyone is McDonalds. More minimum wage workers work for small businesses than for large conglomerates. We have a receptionist who is working on her degree.  We pay her a little under $10hr to answer the phones 5 days a week.  She is allowed to study at work and we encourage that.  What we pay her, pays for her current lifestyle.  If we were to be mandated to pay $14/hr, we would likely do what other companies have done and allow an automated attendant to catch the phones.  Sure we are willing to pay her more, and have told her that we will transition her into more administrative responsibilities once she finishes her degree and develops the skills we require for that level of compensation.

Minimum wage is the lowest step on the corporate ladder.  The higher you make that first step, the harder it is for people to reach it, and fewer will be able to climb.

Dang it!  You sucked me in again.  Don't worry I have no expectation that the logic will seep in.

[Rookie Okie]

Average incomes also include pensioners with paid mortgages and kids just starting out with minimal needs.  There are also people who have simple needs and wants.  If all a fellow wants is a five acre parcel with a double-wide, a bass boat, and a decent pick up truck, he's more than happy making $30K per year.  People who seek better opportunities and who prepare themselves for better opportunities either by improving their education or job skills will eventually earn more, a good deal more.

People who bring no innovation, motivation, or advanced job skills to an employer have no right to demand an arbitrary increase in pay simply because they "deserve" it.  I was brought up that no one deserves anything in the job world- you earn what you are worth.  What you are worth is what you bring to the table that represents an increased value to the employer.  A code welder is worth far more to my employer than a structural welder.  Skills more in line with what we need pays more, it's that simple.

People are paid what they are worth to the employer, you even said that's how you do it yourself based on experience and skill.  There's a huge difference in responsibility, stress, and skill required to operate a multi-billion dollar food giant than there is to sweep floors and ask if: "you want fries with that?".

McDonalds is a lame meme anyhow.  Anyone who stays with them and shows great people skills, a work ethic, and desire to succeed can and do advance to management and they make better income.  McDonald's has also made millionaires out of people who started out as teens who came from nothing and eventually managed to work their way into a franchise or two, or more.  That happens throughout the fast food industry.

Teachers or fast food workers know going in that theirs aren't the best paying jobs and never will be.  If someone wants to make a higher income, they need to aim higher, and go into a business with historically higher wages such as law, medicine, high end welding or machining, engineering, accounting, etc.

If a CEO of a company makes 600 times what the floor sweepers do, he or she must be worth it to the stock holders otherwise, he or she would not earn that.  Their relative salary represents how much value the company owners put on that person.

Yes, the highly compensated CEO is oft-cited as the classic example of ascribing astronomical worth to value.  However, many of the same boot strappers who believe this seem to abandon that principle when it is applied to other well paid professionals such as athletes and entertainers.  Although compensation is largely market driven, it boils down to a SINGLE entity paying someone what it believes that individual is worth to them, and that is all that matters.  Doesn't matter if others outside of that agreement concur or not (their name isn't anywhere on the check).

Of course, on the other side we see CEOs released, athletes cut from teams, and the termination and non-renewal of recording contracts everyday.  Yes, it can be tough at the top.

All is not fair and never will be, and the real truth is that we are not nearly as self-made as we sometimes like to think we are.  Get a good education, prepare, apply, and position yourself.  This alone will not guarantee success but likely increases the odds when considered with other deciding factors.

[Conan71]

All is not fair and never will be, and the real truth is that we are not nearly as self-made as we sometimes like to think we are.  Get a good education, prepare, apply, and position yourself.  This alone will not guarantee success but likely increases the odds when considered with other deciding factors.

Absolutely, without a few breaks early on, I might be pushing a broom at Whirlpool.  You can prepare all you like, but you are still dependent on opportunity.